*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
This episode of The Survivors explores how major losses and life changes — from suicide and family death to coming out and leaving a polygamous cult — reshape who we are. Hosts share personal stories about identity shifts, isolation, grief, and the hard work of finding new communities and meaning.
Through candid conversation, Lisa & Natasha offer compassion, resources, and hope for anyone learning to live with a changed self.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Key Topics
- Moments of identity realization
- Impact of loss and trauma on self
- Coming out as pansexual after years of marriage
- Exiting polygamous cults and redefining self
- The importance of language in healing and identity
Key Takeaways
- Identity is fluid and constantly evolving.
- Loss can lead to profound self-discovery.
- Open communication about identity fosters healing.
- Support systems are crucial during life transitions.
- Embracing change can lead to personal empowerment.
Chapters
00:00 Identity Shifts and Realizations 06:37 Navigating Relationships After Loss 12:32 Coming Out and Embracing Sexuality 18:27 The Importance of Language in Identity 25:34 Excommunication and Loss of Community 31:12 Embracing Change and Moving Forward
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
- Surviving: Finding Hope After Suicide Loss (Familius Books)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:33 So there is a moment, and I think a lot of people know exactly what I'm talking
00:00:33 --> 00:00:38 about, when you realize that you're not who you used to be anymore.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:42 Sometimes it's subtle. Sometimes it's like a brick in your face.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:50 And I think that it can be really disorienting when we realize that we are not
00:00:50 --> 00:00:56 maybe who we used to be, who we want to be anymore.
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 Have you ever had a moment like that where you just were like,
00:01:00 --> 00:01:04 I'm so different now, and I don't think I'll ever be that person ever again?
00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 Well, I've been kind of going through a sort of identity shift lately where
00:01:08 --> 00:01:15 I kept wanting to get back to the old version of Natasha before too many family
00:01:15 --> 00:01:18 members died in a short period of time to get back to her.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 Basically, post, you know, pre-COVID,
00:01:22 --> 00:01:28 But then I've realized she doesn't exist anymore. That person can no longer
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30 exist because too much shit has happened.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:38 Yeah, yeah. And so I'm really just in the throes of trying to figure out who I am and who I want to be.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:42 And it sometimes gets really heavy. What about you?
00:01:42 --> 00:01:48 I know for you is your dad, you know, realizing the moment, the truth about your dad's death.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 Oh, definitely, definitely. Definitely. I mean, I feel like I've had that moment
00:01:51 --> 00:01:53 many times in my life, honestly.
00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 I mean, some more dramatically than others.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:04 Definitely when my children were born, or at least when my oldest Riley was
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 born, and you realize I'm somebody's mom now.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:12 I mean, those are the moments that are, you know, those defining identity moments.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 Those are the beautiful moments. But, oh, for sure I had it.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:22 For those who don't know, I lost my father and two other friends and family members to suicide.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:26 When I lost my father, I was 10 and I was told it was a heart attack.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:31 I found out 35 years later that it was a suicide. So that's the moment that
00:02:31 --> 00:02:32 Natasha was talking about.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:37 And that was about 13 years ago. Oh, it was absolutely the moment where I feel
00:02:37 --> 00:02:41 like my entire identity imploded because all of a sudden I was this survivor
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 of suicide loss. What the hell is that?
00:02:43 --> 00:02:49 What does that mean? What does that mean my life looks like now? And everything blew up.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:59 It made me feel like my entire identity was prior to that was invalidated in some ways.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:06 So, oh yeah, I definitely have had those moments several times in my life. And, you know, I,
00:03:07 --> 00:03:13 I feel like, I do feel like it's a very disorienting kind of experience,
00:03:13 --> 00:03:18 especially when you feel like you really want to go back to a person that you
00:03:18 --> 00:03:22 had been before, but you know, that you can't.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:28 And I feel like even the way that you relate with people, I know for me in my
00:03:28 --> 00:03:32 case, when I had that kind of this most recent identity shift for me,
00:03:33 --> 00:03:42 I couldn't go back if I tried to who I was before because people couldn't relate to who I was now.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:47 I found it very isolating for me for a very, very long time.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:52 It still can be isolating to be something that somebody doesn't understand.
00:03:53 --> 00:03:58 Yeah. And it definitely has had an impact on me a lot.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:04 I've noticed that in relationships where like certain things just didn't feel
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 the same anymore because people don't maybe don't know how to talk to you.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:13 And like in your case, you've had five suicide losses.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:17 You've lost five of your brothers to suicide.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:24 And I can't even imagine how your relationships have changed some people who
00:04:24 --> 00:04:28 were probably there for you in your life and staples in your life and then all
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 of a sudden they couldn't handle it.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:34 Did that I know that happened to you because we've talked
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 about that before yeah I a very
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 dear friend of mine I met her when I was like
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 18 or 19 you know and we
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 drifted in and out of each other's lives but she did
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 she tried to be there but it just it got
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 to be too much it did for a lot of people and and
00:04:51 --> 00:04:56 that's okay i just realized that some people
00:04:56 --> 00:05:02 were just not to meant to continue on to this next version of me and that's
00:05:02 --> 00:05:08 okay um you know i there's the the common adage i don't know if you've heard
00:05:08 --> 00:05:14 it but people are a part of your reason your life for a reason a season or a lifetime. Absolutely.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:21 Absolutely. And that number is dwindling pretty dramatically the lifetime people
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 that I thought would be in my life forever.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:26 That number has gotten rather small.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:31 Yeah. Yeah. I know. We've talked about that before because I think there's this
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 weird tension that shows up.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:40 When we have some kind of identity shift, there's a really weird tension that shows up.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:48 Because part of you misses who you were, and the people you were close to may
00:05:48 --> 00:05:51 not know how to relate with the version that you are now.
00:05:51 --> 00:06:00 And that's a tough situation to be in, because it's hard to fix.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 You know you have to be who you are and and the
00:06:04 --> 00:06:08 people around you have to either accept it or choose to
00:06:08 --> 00:06:14 leave and that can be a really really crushing reality when the people who you
00:06:14 --> 00:06:21 thought were were your people see your new identity and and and they don't want
00:06:21 --> 00:06:26 to be part of it right I mean and it can be with anything you know I I love
00:06:26 --> 00:06:28 that you brought up when your daughter was born,
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 I too had a similar experience when Kirsten was just a,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:36 she's my oldest and she's 14 now, but when she was just a few days old,
00:06:36 --> 00:06:40 I remember a quiet moment with her and I felt like I had been searching for
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 who I wanted to be my whole life.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:47 And in that moment, I knew what it was. I used to be a mom.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:52 And that was certainly not the path that I had originally planned for myself,
00:06:52 --> 00:06:55 but in that moment I knew I was
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 I was on the right path and I was where I was exactly meant
00:06:58 --> 00:07:01 to be and it was beautiful and I'm so so very grateful for
00:07:01 --> 00:07:07 that you know and I had friends that knew me as the party person that was you
00:07:07 --> 00:07:11 know going out and drinking and having fun and then you know people would see
00:07:11 --> 00:07:15 me after you know during my pregnancies because I had two kids in two years
00:07:15 --> 00:07:19 and they would seem not have seen me for years and they're like,
00:07:20 --> 00:07:25 who are you? Because I was calm and just this whole other version of me.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:29 And they just, they could not grapple with this different side of me,
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 this responsible Natasha. Right.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 Responsible. I'm like, well, I mean, I was always responsible. I was just kind of crazy.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 Yeah. That's okay. You can kind of be both. Like, you know, like you said,
00:07:40 --> 00:07:43 there's a season for everything for sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:43 --> 00:07:47 I remember. So I also had, just speaking of like different times in your life
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 where your identity shifted.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:58 I remember being so, so nervous about how people would respond.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:05 And we haven't talked a lot about this on the pod, but I came out not very many years ago.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:11 Like I'm 57 years old and I came out when I was 52 as being pansexual.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:16 And I've been married to my husband Dave for 33 years.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:21 We've been together almost 40 years. We have two grown children. He's the love of my life.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:28 And I had this knowing that I carried with me almost my whole life from the time I was a teenager.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 And it was when I finally did come out,
00:08:33 --> 00:08:42 I was coming out in a world that That was so receptive to it that I really didn't
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 have that many fears, but I had question marks.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:49 I had, I guess,
00:08:49 --> 00:08:55 not concerns even, but curiosities about who would react well,
00:08:55 --> 00:09:04 who would react awkwardly, who would maybe think it was uncomfortable or inappropriate or...
00:09:05 --> 00:09:14 Off-putting in some way. And that, for me, was probably one of the bigger identity shifts.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:22 And I've been very, very lucky that I've had almost nothing but 100% unconditional
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 support from friends, from family, from anyone in my life.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:31 But that low-key fear was definitely there.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:36 Like, okay, this is a big, big identity shift, and how is this going to go?
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 I mean, I know how I felt about it in my own heart, and I felt it was the right
00:09:40 --> 00:09:41 place and the right time.
00:09:41 --> 00:09:45 And my oldest daughter had come out as bi in college, and it was because of
00:09:45 --> 00:09:50 her that we started having these incredible conversations about gender identity and sexuality.
00:09:50 --> 00:09:57 And I just one day opened up to her and said, I think I might be pansexual.
00:09:57 --> 00:10:01 And she was just absolutely ecstatic that I was having this conversation with her.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 And, you know, ultimately ended up, you know, telling all people in my life
00:10:05 --> 00:10:08 who were important and, you know, Dave and family.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:13 And it ended up being in the ways you would want it to be, not a big deal.
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 Well, you just, if you don't mind, if you don't have to, if you don't want to,
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 for our listeners, what does, what does pansexual mean?
00:10:20 --> 00:10:22 Because I'm not familiar with it.
00:10:22 --> 00:10:26 Yeah. So, and I, it's interesting that you say that because this goes back now,
00:10:26 --> 00:10:30 you know what six seven years ago i
00:10:30 --> 00:10:33 was not really that that familiar with
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 with a lot of the new terms within
00:10:36 --> 00:10:41 the lgbtq dictionary i guess you can say so you know when i grew up and i was
00:10:41 --> 00:10:45 my kid's age you were gay you were straight maybe you were bi and that was it
00:10:45 --> 00:10:56 there was not omnisexual and pansexuality and ace and all ace where you asexual.
00:10:56 --> 00:11:00 Oh, okay. I know what that is. Yeah. So, I mean, there were just...
00:11:01 --> 00:11:07 There were very few descriptors, and you kind of fell into one bucket or another
00:11:07 --> 00:11:12 bucket or maybe a third bucket that was kind of a combo of both, which was bisexuality.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:18 And I just remember learning about pansexuality, and I was trying to understand it.
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 And Riley was, you know, it was new to her, too, because it was her new world,
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 and she was explaining it all to us. And she has said to me,
00:11:26 --> 00:11:32 you know, there's a subtle difference between pansexuality and bisexuality.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:37 If you break it all down, the word pan in Latin means pan.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:42 Means more than one. So it's many.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:47 In other words, where bisexuality is really just, it's not men or women, it's two.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:53 So it means you can be attracted to two different sexes.
00:11:53 --> 00:11:58 Where pansexuality refers to being open to anything.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:04 Could be someone trans, could be bi, could be could be gay straight could be
00:12:04 --> 00:12:09 anything and it really has a lot more at least for me everybody has like their
00:12:09 --> 00:12:13 own little nuances to what it means to them but to me it means,
00:12:14 --> 00:12:20 that I don't really I don't really focus on someone's gender it's really just
00:12:20 --> 00:12:25 about how I feel around them or if I'm you know I can be attracted to some to
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 a quality of their personality that kind of thing.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:33 So when she explained these differences, I was like, holy shit.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:38 That is who I am. But that's what I couldn't explain.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 It's what I couldn't express. Like when you don't have the language to explain
00:12:41 --> 00:12:46 something or to identify something, it stays in kind of an abstract state in
00:12:46 --> 00:12:50 your brain, or at least that's what it was like in mine.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:55 So I knew that I didn't just fall in one of those standard kind of original
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 buckets of homosexuality.
00:12:57 --> 00:13:01 And once I found out what pansexuality was, I was like, okay,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:05 that feels right. That feels like me.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:11 And I didn't come out because I was trying to change my relationship with Dave
00:13:11 --> 00:13:13 or get out of my marriage or because it was someone else.
00:13:13 --> 00:13:20 It was strictly because I wanted to own who I was and be out in the open with my sexuality.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:26 I had a child who's queer and I supported that community, and I was now a part
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 of that community, and representation matters, and it was as simple as that.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:34 But my identity very, very much changed, and I.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:39 I, that's one thing I'm, I'm so grateful. I wish I had done it sooner. I really do.
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 And maybe it's because I'm jaded. Maybe it's because I have had such positive
00:13:43 --> 00:13:46 experiences with it all this time.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:52 But, you know, I, I, I was, I embraced it from day one. Yeah.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:57 Well, that's something I've never really admitted openly and publicly either.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:02 I had said for years that there's, you know, I'm one of 20 siblings.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:09 One of us has got to be gay. I was like, statistically speaking,
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 well, there's got to be more than one, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:14:12 --> 00:14:16 Probably like seven to eight. right right and
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 i always used to ask my youngest brother cory and
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 you know i later found out that that really hurt his feelings oh you
00:14:23 --> 00:14:27 know because he was everybody else was in relationships or married or whatever
00:14:27 --> 00:14:32 you know but little did i know someone like you existed out there that was in
00:14:32 --> 00:14:37 a marriage for 30 something years or you know and finally came out but i finally
00:14:37 --> 00:14:39 realized that And I was bisexual. Mm-hmm.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:43 And I came out, I remember having conversations at the time.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:48 I had only, you know, was in communication with a couple of my family members at the time.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:55 And my dad, my dad was great when I told him.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 He's like, all right. He always referred to his daughters as,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:00 he'd call his daughter. All right, daughter.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:07 He really knew what to say. Is that a polygamy thing, because you come from
00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 a polygamist cult? Is it like son, daughter?
00:15:10 --> 00:15:15 I feel like... Maybe, I think, but maybe. But I just know that my dad often
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 referred to, maybe it's because he was losing his mind and couldn't remember who we were.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 Yeah, I was going to say, because he had 20 kids.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:26 You know, but he always, it was when he was talking to his daughter specifically.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:32 He would call his daughter. I think it might've been just a term of endearment, really.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:37 But when he would say, refer to his boys as sons, then it was more serious.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:42 But when he would say the term daughter, it was more in a endearing way.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:44 But he was very sweet about it.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:49 And I do remember I did tell Corey and he was like, you son of a bitch.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:55 You have been having me for years thinking I was gay and all this time it was
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 you. Projection. You were just projecting.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:03 Hey, got to come out when you're ready. Yeah. And I, too, at the time,
00:16:03 --> 00:16:08 you know, I'd been with George for many years and two kids and I didn't want it to change.
00:16:08 --> 00:16:10 I wasn't looking to get out of my marriage or anything like that.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:15 But again, you know, just realizing in that moment that,
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 That was my truth. That was your identity. Yeah.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24 And it did, you know, it is not something that I openly talk about.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:31 Well, we are broadcast. We are listening to it in 40 countries and all around
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 the country. So now everybody knows.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:38 And they love you more because of it. In my intimate life, that is something
00:16:38 --> 00:16:42 that, you know, I'll talk about my brother's suicides all day long,
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 but I'm not going to be talking about my sexuality.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:47 Yeah. I don't know why. Like, to me, that was just something that was very close and personal.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:53 Hey, you know what? You reserve that right to do that or not to do that. Yeah.
00:16:54 --> 00:16:58 But, you know, identity shift and feeling more free.
00:16:59 --> 00:17:03 And, you know, there's these different pivotal moments in our lives where it's
00:17:03 --> 00:17:04 like, wow, having the weight of that.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:09 Not that it's a dirty secret, but just having the weight of that being out there.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 And that it's not something you're carrying alone. that
00:17:14 --> 00:17:19 and again like you said with what your how your daughter was explaining to the
00:17:19 --> 00:17:24 language and and and communicating that i actually again as i mentioned before
00:17:24 --> 00:17:30 i listened to a lot of podcasts i love studies about the human condition and
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32 psychology and why people respond the way they
00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 do and a a study
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 that was done about why people recover from trauma versus
00:17:38 --> 00:17:41 they don't is because and and
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 what the people that do in his study that
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47 recover are able to rebound and
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 recover from the trauma is because they had the words
00:17:50 --> 00:17:54 and the communication to describe even
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 if it was only on paper they weren't actively even talking
00:17:57 --> 00:18:03 to somebody about it even it just being able to openly communicate in words
00:18:03 --> 00:18:09 what was happening to them and that that language so i I am very grateful that
00:18:09 --> 00:18:14 we are taking a societal shift and talking more openly about all these hard
00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 things and giving people, you know,
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 the opportunity and the language to talk about these hard things.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of The Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:28 If you're listening right now and you're not okay, if you're feeling overwhelmed,
00:18:29 --> 00:18:33 stuck, or like you're carrying more than you can handle, please know you don't
00:18:33 --> 00:18:34 have to go through it alone.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:41 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:18:41 --> 00:18:45 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 Reaching out is a brave first step, and you owe it to yourself.
00:18:49 --> 00:18:56 Because your life matters, your story matters, and health is always just three numbers away.
00:18:58 --> 00:19:05 Well, yeah, I mean, that's where it all starts. It's how we communicate with each other.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:11 It's the communities that we find that support our truths and our identities
00:19:11 --> 00:19:20 and our lifestyles and all the things that, of course, you know, make us uniquely us.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:31 You know, at this point, once we find someone who we can confide in and really
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 see us for who we are, I feel like, you know,
00:19:36 --> 00:19:43 those are where so much of the, I think the, I don't want to say magic, it's not magic. Yeah.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 So much positivity comes from in our lives.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:55 So much support in our lives comes from these places where we can be open and
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 where we can share our authentic identities.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 You know, it's unfortunate that not everybody has those places,
00:20:02 --> 00:20:06 but those places do exist.
00:20:06 --> 00:20:14 And it's our responsibility, I think, in some ways to look for the places that will embrace us.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 And our true identities. We have to. Yeah.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 You know? Feeling safe enough to do so. Exactly.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:27 You know, in Utah, obviously, a lot of people know about Warren Jeffs and,
00:20:27 --> 00:20:31 you know, the polygamous cult and all that stuff.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:35 And so I, you know. Which is where you come from. Which is where I come from and where I was raised.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 And as I started to grow up and enter the,
00:20:40 --> 00:20:43 you know the real world and outside of
00:20:43 --> 00:20:46 that as you know as we were excommunicated and and
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 I had to learn to be very careful with who I shared that
00:20:49 --> 00:20:52 information with because I was ostracized and
00:20:52 --> 00:20:57 judged for coming from being raised in that and people would treat me differently
00:20:57 --> 00:21:03 in circles social circles I didn't want to have anything to do with me or even
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 in the workplace I was ostracized yeah talk about a talk about an identity shift
00:21:07 --> 00:21:12 I mean I wasn't even thinking When we talked about doing this particular episode,
00:21:12 --> 00:21:17 I'll be honest, I wasn't even thinking about that part of your identity.
00:21:17 --> 00:21:24 Raised, you know, one of 20 kids in a polygamy cult, all of a sudden you're
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 excommunicated and you're like...
00:21:27 --> 00:21:35 Just Joe Schmoe on the street like anybody else, not associated with this cult anymore in this life.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:41 What must that be like? What must that identity shift have been like for you?
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 It was a complete loss of identity.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:47 My dad actually, he had basically a midlife crisis.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:53 And, you know, because that was his, that was all we knew, all of us.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56 We lost our entire sense of community.
00:21:56 --> 00:22:02 Our neighbors were my dad's brothers and their families, and they had to completely cut off from us.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:07 Our cousins that were our best friends, and we hung out with them every single
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 day, ate dinners together.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:13 Just in one day, in one moment, we lost it all.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:18 And we floundered a lot. And my dad, yeah, he had a midlife crisis and ended
00:22:18 --> 00:22:22 up, that's when we found out about PTSD from the Vietnam War.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27 He ended up with a wonderful counselor up at the VA hospital to help him through.
00:22:28 --> 00:22:32 You know, he had some pretty bad anger outbursts and things like that growing up.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36 And, you know, we realized, you know, I was 12 years old, 12,
00:22:37 --> 00:22:38 13 years old when all this was happening.
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 So I didn't realize the full impact of it all.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:48 But yeah, it's losing every, all sense of community and belonging.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:55 I mean, talk about just gut-wrenching and losing everything that you know and love.
00:22:55 --> 00:22:59 And then I think that is what we then trauma bonded to each other,
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03 our siblings, even more so, because then we didn't have anybody else.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 And those trauma bonds went thick and still Will do.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 I want to ask a question.
00:23:12 --> 00:23:20 When you were still in the cult, when you were still in the FLDS and your family
00:23:20 --> 00:23:25 had not been excommunicated, did you all or?
00:23:28 --> 00:23:32 Maybe you or maybe all your siblings, I don't know. Were you all like dying
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 to get out? Was that the mentality?
00:23:34 --> 00:23:38 Was it get me the hell out of here? Or did you just not, was it just life,
00:23:38 --> 00:23:40 business as usual, life as we know it?
00:23:40 --> 00:23:44 And you wouldn't even consider what life was like outside?
00:23:45 --> 00:23:50 Well, my older siblings, so I'm number 13 of the 20.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 And the vast majority of my older siblings, so there's kind of like three generations
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 within our family, the older kids, the middle kids, which is where I've fallen in the younger kids.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:05 And most of my older siblings had left the church and were what we considered apostates.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:11 And that's ultimately why we were excommunicated because we were still in communication
00:24:11 --> 00:24:17 with our, my dad adored his children and he did not want to cut his children off.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:21 And that's ultimately his dad, the prophet at the time said,
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 you can choose your church or you choose your children.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:29 And my dad, duh, I choose my children. And so my dad was, when we were excommunicated
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 because of that, and I'm very grateful to my dad for that.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:38 And I knew at a very young age, and I've had conversations with other siblings,
00:24:38 --> 00:24:42 that they too knew that it was not the life that they wanted.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 Okay okay and i also i
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 was terrified of it because my mom's my the
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 first wife susan and my mom the second wife sherry they
00:24:51 --> 00:24:56 were full-blooded sisters and they fought like cats and dogs and my sister jerusha
00:24:56 --> 00:25:01 who was just two years older than me we fought like cats and dogs and i was
00:25:01 --> 00:25:06 terrified that i was going to end up having to marry the same man that she did
00:25:06 --> 00:25:10 and that oh i would have to live the life that I've watched my mothers have.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:15 And I did not want that life. So did it go further than that?
00:25:15 --> 00:25:17 You saying, I want out of here?
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 Do you remember thinking those thoughts ever when you were younger? Yes.
00:25:21 --> 00:25:26 Yes. I remember going to grocery stores with my mom, also clean people's houses. And I.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 Remember seeing their clothes or seeing their kids dressed or,
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 and I'm like, I want to, I want to dress like that someday. I want out.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:38 And so I knew, you know, and, and many of my siblings too knew that they,
00:25:38 --> 00:25:41 that they wanted out and they were slowly leaving one by one.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:46 There was Marcus and Brenda were the, that of the older kids that stayed in
00:25:46 --> 00:25:53 when we were excommunicated and, and they continued to follow my grandfather and Warren ultimately.
00:25:54 --> 00:25:58 And when you say Warren, you mean Warren Jeffs, the former prophet.
00:25:58 --> 00:25:59 Yeah, Warren Jeffs. Yeah.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 So, okay, then, here's a question that I think I know the answer to,
00:26:02 --> 00:26:04 but I want to hear you say it anyway.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:11 But did you at any point or in any way, actually, once you got excommunicated,
00:26:11 --> 00:26:17 did you grieve the loss of that identity at all? Or were you just too young?
00:26:18 --> 00:26:23 My, well, no, we were excited. So my mom, she basically was out already.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 She was doing her own thing she wore
00:26:26 --> 00:26:29 the pants and painted her nails and did makeup
00:26:29 --> 00:26:33 and you know all the things she she looked like a normal everyday
00:26:33 --> 00:26:37 gentile as they're referred to because she already had one foot out the door
00:26:37 --> 00:26:43 she recognized the bullshit a long time ago gotcha and and so we were excited
00:26:43 --> 00:26:48 we were very very excited to be out from under that at least my mom's kids were
00:26:48 --> 00:26:49 very excited because she was excited.
00:26:50 --> 00:26:56 Susan and her remaining children that were left at home, because about 50%,
00:26:56 --> 00:27:01 she had 11 children, at least half of them, I think, were out or on the way out of.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:07 And so she actually considered being reassigned to another man to stay in the church.
00:27:08 --> 00:27:15 And so the biggest shift, identity shift for us is that our best friends and
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 our cousins who live next door, we could no longer speak to.
00:27:20 --> 00:27:24 I think that was, for the kids, so to speak, that was the hardest part for us.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 Did you grieve that? Do you think you grieved that?
00:27:27 --> 00:27:31 Because I know we grieve losses of identity. We do.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:37 At times. I don't think we did. You know, I've later reconnected with those
00:27:37 --> 00:27:42 cousins, and they said that they used to watch us because we'd have parties
00:27:42 --> 00:27:43 and these big elaborate events.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:48 And, you know, once we were excommunicated, we didn't have to be careful or,
00:27:48 --> 00:27:50 you know, we could just do whatever the hell we wanted.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:54 And they said that they would watch because they had just put this big,
00:27:54 --> 00:27:55 huge addition on their home.
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 And so in their living room they could see right down
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 into our backyard and he said
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 that we they spent more hours than
00:28:04 --> 00:28:11 they could count just watching us because they wanted so badly to be a part
00:28:11 --> 00:28:16 of what we were experiencing getting to be out in the real world and to experience
00:28:16 --> 00:28:20 all these wonderful amazing things that we were not allowed to experience especially
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 as time went on and Warren was taking more control of the church.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:29 Yeah. So for you, that change, I mean, complete, talk about a shift in identity.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 It wasn't just you, it was your whole family. It was your belief system.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:37 It was the way you moved around in the world, the way you presented yourself,
00:28:37 --> 00:28:39 everything, everything attached to your life changed.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:45 And I do remember, it's so weird because we were still having to dress modestly.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 We didn't wear the prairie dress kind of garb that people think about when they
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 think of the FLDS, but we still dress modestly.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:57 And it was quite some time before mom would let us and mom and dad would let
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 the girls wear just jeans without having a skirt over it.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:05 And I was just like, it didn't make any kind of sense, but it was still that.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:10 Warped sense of that's what we were supposed to wear or dress.
00:29:10 --> 00:29:15 Even though my mom was not dressing that way, she still made Jerusha and I wear
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 long skirts or whatever for the longest time.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 And I remember being so mad at her. I'm like, we're not in the church anymore.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:27 Why do I have to wear this damn skirt? Because she's your mother and do what I say, not as I do.
00:29:28 --> 00:29:33 Exactly. Exactly. Meanwhile, she was, my mom, when I think of my mom when I was a kid,
00:29:34 --> 00:29:36 you know, the the leggings with the syrup that goes under the
00:29:36 --> 00:29:39 heel yeah sure that is my mom like
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 she wore those pants every damn day
00:29:43 --> 00:29:47 with like a long shirt and red
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 like i don't know why but red is the one that's i know she wore red a lot because
00:29:51 --> 00:29:55 it pissed off warren right well because warren jeffs did not like the color
00:29:55 --> 00:30:03 red and forbid it in your entire creepy ass would spy from his office into our backyard,
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 because we lived two houses down from the church.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:10 Yeah, I remember. I remember you've said that on earlier episodes in season
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12 three, I think. Yeah, yeah.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:17 So I think that the bottom line to all of it, to all of this,
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 we've talked about so many different kinds of identities and shifts,
00:30:20 --> 00:30:25 and some of them are really, really good, the ones that you embrace, and some of them aren't.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 And sometimes we wish we could go back, but identity's fluid.
00:30:30 --> 00:30:34 But I think that's the, I think that's the, really the.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:41 The crux of the whole conversation is that it's fluid and it's hard.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:44 It's hard when you feel like you're mourning a part of yourself.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:46 Like I know you said at the beginning of the episode, you're talking about how
00:30:46 --> 00:30:54 you wanted to get back to an older version of yourself, like a different past version of yourself.
00:30:55 --> 00:31:00 Do you feel like you need that? Do you have to do that?
00:31:00 --> 00:31:04 Or do you kind of embrace where you are.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:09 I know that there are definitely phases and stages, parts of my own personality
00:31:09 --> 00:31:16 that maybe I've either left behind or outgrown. And sometimes you kind of yearn
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18 for that a little bit. But overall.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:24 I'm personally happy being in the moment, I think, being who I am in the moment
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 and continuing to flesh that out.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:32 Do you feel like you can move forward in your life without regaining those parts of yourself?
00:31:33 --> 00:31:39 I guess the version of me that I miss the most is the carefree Natasha.
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 Uh-huh. because now with the
00:31:43 --> 00:31:47 weight of it all of you know
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 most of it is is losing five brothers to suicide my
00:31:50 --> 00:31:56 dad to cancer and and in such a short amount of time you know losing so many
00:31:56 --> 00:32:01 of them just within the last three years it's that weight it's the heaviness
00:32:01 --> 00:32:07 that i feel all the time and it's it It's just constantly there.
00:32:07 --> 00:32:13 And I miss the version of Natasha that did not have that weight all the time
00:32:13 --> 00:32:15 to carry because it's exhausting.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:17 I feel tired all the time.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:23 And that's, I guess, what I miss is being able to be carefree and light and
00:32:23 --> 00:32:27 happy without this underlying darkness that's always there and ever present.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:33 So I guess it's just, with time, I'm sure, I will learn to make room for that.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:36 It just takes time and practice.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:41 I was trying to think of the best way to end this conversation and I think you
00:32:41 --> 00:32:48 just nailed it because at the end of the day that's kind of what we all have to do is just,
00:32:48 --> 00:32:52 it's almost like trust the process I think in a lot of ways like we have to
00:32:52 --> 00:32:58 sit in the shit for a while as awful as that may be and maybe long a little
00:32:58 --> 00:33:03 bit for days that were easier but we also...
00:33:04 --> 00:33:10 We also gain an awful lot as we get older, as we mature, as we move through
00:33:10 --> 00:33:12 life, we gain different perspectives.
00:33:12 --> 00:33:19 And so much of that is a benefit and is a gift. And it's a give and a get, you know, you get older.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:22 It's like, you know, everybody always wants to, I want to be 18.
00:33:22 --> 00:33:24 I want to be legal. I want to drive. I want to go to college.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 I want all these things. I want to be an adult.
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 I want to own my own home, all these things. And then it's like,
00:33:28 --> 00:33:30 oh, shit, be careful what you wish for.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:33 Now you're paying taxes. Now you're paying for a car. Now you can,
00:33:33 --> 00:33:36 you know, you can get yourself into trouble pretty easily at this point.
00:33:37 --> 00:33:41 You know, things like that, that, you know, when we, when our identity shifts
00:33:41 --> 00:33:45 like that, there's always going to be the up and there's always going to be the down side.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:53 And I think so much of it is like you said, really understanding that with time,
00:33:53 --> 00:33:56 it will soften, the edges will soften, number one.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:07 And number two is that we take on, in a lot of ways, newer and more beautiful
00:34:07 --> 00:34:10 parts of our identity. And we make space for those, too.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 Well, exactly. I feel
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 like I'm in this in-between phase where I've
00:34:18 --> 00:34:21 got all this knowledge on how
00:34:21 --> 00:34:25 to process and what I've experienced and because I
00:34:25 --> 00:34:29 know that I meant to take my story and do something powerful with it and I do
00:34:29 --> 00:34:34 have that opportunity here with you guys and I'm so grateful for that but I
00:34:34 --> 00:34:38 know that there's something on the other side of that that I get to do something
00:34:38 --> 00:34:42 pretty big with and I don't know what that is.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:48 And so I'm in that in-between phase where probably like I'm,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:51 you know, like a butterfly in the cocoon where I'm just kind of like growing
00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 and developing and changing into something else.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:58 And I'm very excited to see what comes on the other side of this.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:03 Again, I have no idea what that's going to be, but I know it's going to be pretty fucking amazing.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:07 I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you. And I think that there's the
00:35:07 --> 00:35:10 whole idea of kind of embracing where we are right now and what our identity
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 is and what it can become.
00:35:13 --> 00:35:19 I think that's where the beauty is, is being able to see that in the moment
00:35:19 --> 00:35:23 and be like, okay, I, you know, I might wish that certain things were different right now.
00:35:23 --> 00:35:26 I might wish I had another identity, another version of my identity back,
00:35:26 --> 00:35:34 but there's still so much ahead that I have to do or that I can become. Like, we are becoming.
00:35:34 --> 00:35:39 We're becoming every day, and I love that. I personally, I just,
00:35:39 --> 00:35:44 I love knowing that it's always changing, even though it's scary.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 It can be scary. But I think every one of us is feeling that way.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 So that makes it a little less scary. Yeah.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:57 We're in it together. Right on. Right on. Right on. Let's keep surviving. I will, if you will.
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 Absolutely. You take care, darling. I'll see you next week.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:06 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:36:06 --> 00:36:11 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone, and you're definitely not broken.
00:36:11 --> 00:36:15 Healing takes time, and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:36:15 --> 00:36:19 still here, and still trying, means you're already doing the hard work.
00:36:19 --> 00:36:24 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:36:24 --> 00:36:25 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 That's how we keep these conversations going, and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:34 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:36:34 --> 00:36:35 help is always out there.
00:36:35 --> 00:36:40 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:44 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:36:48 --> 00:36:51 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:36:51 --> 00:36:55 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:36:55 --> 00:37:00 Until then, take care of yourself and your people, and keep surviving. Bye.