*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this week's episode of The Survivors, Natasha & Lisa explore the complex emotions of Mother's Day — one celebrating a close relationship with her mother, the other navigating no contact after a polygamous, abusive family upbringing. They talk candidly about grief, boundaries, healing, and parenting through trauma, and share practical compassion and resources for anyone facing similar struggles.
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Topics
- The emotional complexity of Mother's Day
- Natasha's background in the FLDS cult
- The impact of family trauma on relationships
- The importance of boundaries and self-care
- Building healthy relationships with children
Chapters
00:00 Navigating Mother's Day Emotions 02:09 Contrasting Mother-Child Relationships 06:29 Understanding Natasha's Complex Family Background 11:18 The Impact of No Contact on Relationships 14:49 Grieving and Thankfulness on Mother's Day 18:28 The Pain of Living with No Contact 23:49 Finding Strength in New Family Dynamics 30:25 Celebrating Mother's Day with New Traditions
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
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- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:12 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:31 So is it too premature to say, happy Mother's Day?
00:00:33 --> 00:00:36 Do you think it's too soon? No, no.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:43 I mean, it's coming up. So it's a day sometimes. It's a day. It's appropriate.
00:00:43 --> 00:00:50 We are days away from Mother's Day. And I know for a lot of reasons that it
00:00:50 --> 00:00:52 does not look the same for everybody.
00:00:53 --> 00:00:57 It just doesn't. You know, you think about things like Valentine's Day and you
00:00:57 --> 00:01:01 think about the holiday season and you realize that, you know,
00:01:01 --> 00:01:07 there's all this hype for all these holidays for the majority of people who
00:01:07 --> 00:01:08 experience them in a similar way.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:14 And then there's a whole group of people out there who have a very different experience.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:21 And Mother's Day is one of them. And, you know, it holds so many different emotions
00:01:21 --> 00:01:25 for so many different people, depending on who you are and how you celebrate
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 the day and all those moving parts.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 And, you know, maybe you've lost your mom and that makes the day hard.
00:01:31 --> 00:01:36 Or, you know, maybe you've been trying to have children and start a family and
00:01:36 --> 00:01:40 you want to be a mom and you're having fertility issues and that's a struggle.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:45 Or like you, which is what we're going to talk about today, maybe you don't
00:01:45 --> 00:01:52 have a good relationship with your mom and that makes the day a tricky one.
00:01:52 --> 00:02:01 So you and I have very, very diametrically opposite experiences with our moms
00:02:01 --> 00:02:03 and those relationships.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:11 And so both of those experiences are real and both of them deserve their own space. And so...
00:02:12 --> 00:02:18 Today's the day. Today is no better day than right here and now to talk about
00:02:18 --> 00:02:19 that. Are you up for that?
00:02:19 --> 00:02:26 Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So for me, and anyone who heard our episodes,
00:02:27 --> 00:02:33 we had a two-part episode last month with my mom, you know that I have a very close relationship.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:39 I'm very, very blessed that my mom is alive and well, and she and I are very,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 very much a part of each other's day-to-day lives.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 And for that, I'm extremely grateful.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:51 And, you know, it's due in part because of how hard we've worked together,
00:02:51 --> 00:02:54 the trauma that's bonded us together, the kind of a human she is.
00:02:54 --> 00:02:59 But for you, it's very, very different. It's a very different experience.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 And we're rolling into Mother's Day weekend. And,
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 Just, I want to know what that's like for you. Because you're coming at it from
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 two different perspectives.
00:03:10 --> 00:03:13 You're coming at it like you are a mom. You have two amazing kids.
00:03:13 --> 00:03:19 So you have that part of Mother's Day that is full-on celebrate you and you
00:03:19 --> 00:03:20 get to be with your children.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:27 But there's a hole there. There's a hole there where your relationship with your mom used to be.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:33 What is that like for you? Like, do you want to even just give backstory and
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 first tell what it is like?
00:03:37 --> 00:03:42 Well, so right now we are no contact. The longest period of time I've gone without
00:03:42 --> 00:03:47 speaking to my mother was, I want to say about four years.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:54 That was back in like 2016, in that time frame between 2015 and 2016 and,
00:03:54 --> 00:03:55 you know, four years there.
00:03:56 --> 00:04:00 You know, there's been periods of time where I didn't, you know,
00:04:01 --> 00:04:02 I had to cut my mom out of my life.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:06 But it made it easier during that time, that four-year period,
00:04:06 --> 00:04:07 because we had moved to Virginia.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:13 And, you know, so there wasn't that family contact at all. Because she was in
00:04:13 --> 00:04:16 Utah with you. Yeah, my whole family lives in Utah.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:20 And, or I should say the vast majority of my family lives in Utah.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:27 And you know it just my mom and i have had a very tumultuous i can never say
00:04:27 --> 00:04:32 that word you want me to say it for you thank you i got it tumultuous thank you that word.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:39 Relationship for since i was a kid and it's,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 I see, like, the relationship you have with your mom. I see the relationship
00:04:44 --> 00:04:45 you have with your daughters.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 And, or other women where they're, like, best friends with their moms.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:53 I know that my sister has that relationship with her daughter where they're best friends.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:59 And, you know, Kirsten's, we're still in that phase where I, you know what I mean?
00:04:59 --> 00:05:04 Like, she's 14 and I'm still her mom.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:07 You know, like, my sister and her daughter, her daughter's in her 20s now.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:11 So it kind of, I think, changes as your children get older a little bit.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:13 Oh, well, I mean, it does.
00:05:13 --> 00:05:19 I mean, I'm the mom of a 20, almost 26 and almost 29-year-old,
00:05:19 --> 00:05:22 and it very much becomes a different dynamic.
00:05:23 --> 00:05:27 You're, you know, they're on their own and you're not there in the capacity
00:05:27 --> 00:05:31 of the person who day-to-day takes care of them and everything in their world.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:37 They are their own people. And then you become friends. In a lot of cases, you become friends.
00:05:37 --> 00:05:41 And that's, I mean, I'm very, very blessed that my two daughters and my mom
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 are my best friends in the world. So, yeah.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:49 Yeah. And I'm pretty sure Kirsten and I will have that. I mean,
00:05:49 --> 00:05:50 she comes to me with everything.
00:05:51 --> 00:05:58 And we have a very close relationship. You know, I realized very early on that.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:03 My relationship with my mother, in my teenage years especially,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 I knew that that was not a safe relationship.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:08 What do you mean by safe?
00:06:10 --> 00:06:14 I couldn't trust her with private information. Okay.
00:06:15 --> 00:06:22 Because she would either use it against me, or she would share it with my siblings or other people.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:28 I think it's worth mentioning because not everyone knows your story.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:34 Not everyone knows my story, and your background in particular is very detailed,
00:06:34 --> 00:06:36 but I think it's worth mentioning.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:40 Can you just for two seconds, for the sake of context, if anyone's listening
00:06:40 --> 00:06:44 and they're new, can you explain the family that you came from?
00:06:45 --> 00:06:50 I was from the FLDS Polygamous Cult, the Fun Most Latter-day Saints,
00:06:51 --> 00:06:53 aka Warren Jeffs. He's my uncle.
00:06:53 --> 00:06:58 I had three mothers growing up. I'm one of 20 children in my household.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:04 My mothers were full-blooded sisters. My dad's first wife and my mom,
00:07:04 --> 00:07:06 who's the second wife, they were, you know, full-blooded sisters,
00:07:06 --> 00:07:11 which brought a lot of chaos and drama, yes.
00:07:11 --> 00:07:16 And then you know the third wife was brought in and she was actually only 16
00:07:16 --> 00:07:22 when she was assigned to my dad and my dad my grandfather was the prophet so
00:07:22 --> 00:07:26 he had to take on another wife you don't you don't say no to another wife so
00:07:26 --> 00:07:31 you know there's i've realized now and looking back that.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 So my brothers, all my brothers, the vast majority of my brothers have really
00:07:36 --> 00:07:37 good, tight-knit, close relationships.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:44 But the women in my family do not. So you mean they are tight with each other?
00:07:44 --> 00:07:45 Yes. Like the brothers themselves?
00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 Okay. Yes. Yes. The brothers have a very tight-knit, close relationship.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:55 But the sisters do not. And it's because we did not.
00:07:55 --> 00:08:00 Yeah, it is. It's really weird. And I think it's because we did not have a good
00:08:00 --> 00:08:06 example. We were not modeled having close, safe relationships with other females.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:11 The mothers were always in competition with each other. Yeah,
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 I know you've said that a lot in the past. Right.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:16 And so it's just very interesting.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:22 I know that, and two, the reason that my relationship with my mom is very complex
00:08:22 --> 00:08:28 is that she has the capacity to be a good mother to certain children.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 Okay. That's where I had to draw the boundary. Because I could see that she
00:08:33 --> 00:08:37 had the capacity to be a good mother and be a good supportive,
00:08:37 --> 00:08:42 you know, and supportive and loving and caring, but to select children.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:49 And I was not one of those. What was that like? Like, when did that dawn on you?
00:08:49 --> 00:08:53 Was that something that was just a slow burn?
00:08:53 --> 00:09:01 Or did you, was it a certain issue or situation that happened that kind of revealed
00:09:01 --> 00:09:06 that to you? I think it was just over time that I realized it.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 And I would watch her interact with my siblings and me.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:17 And I was like, oh. And especially after I had children.
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 That's when it became abundantly clear is after I had children.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:27 Because then I knew like having children and I was like okay so this you know
00:09:27 --> 00:09:31 what I mean it was just something that snapped in me and I was really a lot
00:09:31 --> 00:09:35 more aware after having children and I would watch her.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:43 Be and do and model with my siblings and even children from Susan that weren't
00:09:43 --> 00:09:51 biologically my mother's children, but she treats them better than her own biological children.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:56 I don't know what it is for, you know, and I don't want to speak for my sister
00:09:56 --> 00:10:02 Jerusha, but I do want to say that there's something about me and my sister Jerusha.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 So we are children number three
00:10:05 --> 00:10:09 and four for her for my mom of her six children and and
00:10:09 --> 00:10:16 then she had my baby sister when i was 13 and jerusha was 15 so big huge gap
00:10:16 --> 00:10:23 there but the the difference in the way that she is with shaylin versus the
00:10:23 --> 00:10:27 way she is with me and jerusha vastly different So Shaylin was the baby.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 Shaylin's the baby. Okay. Yeah. And Shaylin gets all the love,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:37 all the care, all the mothering still. And Shaylin's in her 20s now.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:43 And to see her get the kind of love and adoration and care and concern,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:47 it hurts. It really does.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 How could it not hurt? You know, I want to ask you a question.
00:10:51 --> 00:10:56 And I know, obviously, this whole episode is focused on Mother's Day and how
00:10:56 --> 00:11:00 Mother's Day can be experienced in so many different ways.
00:11:00 --> 00:11:04 And this is your backstory of why your relationship is the way it is with your
00:11:04 --> 00:11:07 mom, which is so important to this conversation.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 But I'm curious, have you ever talked about this with your mom?
00:11:14 --> 00:11:20 She gaslights me and tells me it's not true. But also I have brought up to her
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 That she treats Jenny Who is
00:11:23 --> 00:11:29 Susan's daughter Jenny and my mom Have a very very close relationship And,
00:11:29 --> 00:11:33 And I brought that up to her. I was like, why do you put Jenny on a pedestal?
00:11:33 --> 00:11:37 Why do you treat Jenny so much better than you do your own biological daughters?
00:11:37 --> 00:11:44 Yeah. And her response was, well, Jenny has always treated me with kindness and respect.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 And because I wasn't mothering her day to day, there isn't that,
00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 I forget the words that she used, but basically there wasn't that friction that
00:11:53 --> 00:11:55 she had with Jerusha and I, I
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 mean, you have friction with your teenage daughters, with your teenagers.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 Females or males there's just friction as being
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 a parent right right but because there was no friction
00:12:05 --> 00:12:08 with jenny but that i've realized again that
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 that was jenny's survival mechanism that's how jenny survived by
00:12:11 --> 00:12:14 being a chronic people pleaser never going against the
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 grain always doing what the parents wanted that was
00:12:17 --> 00:12:23 her survival i'm not built that way i always went against the grain i always
00:12:23 --> 00:12:29 stood up for myself i always spoke out and you know jerusha's got her own issues
00:12:29 --> 00:12:35 that she deals with so she wasn't exactly easy but we were just normal teenagers,
00:12:35 --> 00:12:39 but to see her her treat jenny and
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 shaylin so much better than she treats us i'll tell
00:12:42 --> 00:12:48 you what it and even jenny's children do you know that she treats jenny's children
00:12:48 --> 00:12:53 better than she treats my own really she has to be so hard for you yeah and
00:12:53 --> 00:12:59 she treats she has babysat my children i can count on one hand how many times
00:12:59 --> 00:13:00 she's babysat my children.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:06 And she has watched Jenny's children for a week at a time while Jenny went on
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 vacation when they were, she had three kids.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:12 And it's just, I don't know, that's where I can't forget.
00:13:12 --> 00:13:17 I can forgive my mother for all the shit that happened when I was a kid,
00:13:17 --> 00:13:21 because she was doing the best that she could under the circumstances and being
00:13:21 --> 00:13:25 in an incredibly toxic, chaotic environment in a polygamous situation.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:33 What I can't forgive her for is her continued denial and treatment of me as an adult.
00:13:34 --> 00:13:40 Making her aware of that and her choosing, actually choosing not to treat me
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 with the same kind of love and respect that she does Jenny and Shaylin.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 Well, that's fair. I mean, you're being treated differently.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:54 So there's no question that that's going to have a severe impact on your relationship with your mom.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:59 So, okay, now everybody has heard, we've all heard the backstory.
00:13:59 --> 00:14:06 Now we understand why the dynamic between you and your mom exists the way that it does. So,
00:14:07 --> 00:14:12 What comes up for you? Like, let's put aside you being the mom celebrating your
00:14:12 --> 00:14:17 own motherhood on Mother's Day, because we know that your son and daughter absolutely adore you.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:22 And, and we know, you know, I've met them and I know how they feel about their mom.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 So the sun rises and sets on you. But let's put that aside for a second.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:32 And let's talk about what what comes up for you on Mother's Day as someone who
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 is no contact with your mom? Like, is it, do you grieve that?
00:14:36 --> 00:14:37 Is it sad? Does it still affect you?
00:14:38 --> 00:14:42 I think about her. Every holiday, it doesn't matter what holiday it is,
00:14:42 --> 00:14:47 is always 50-50, sad, grieving, and thankful.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:55 Because every holiday growing up was always, we always got together and it was
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 chaotic and beautiful, but also fun.
00:14:58 --> 00:15:04 And now it's so different when it's just me and George and the kids. It's so quiet.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:11 It's, yeah, every holiday, it doesn't matter what it is, 50-50 grieving and 50-50 thankful.
00:15:13 --> 00:15:19 It's, I don't know how not to exist in that world of grieving and being thankful.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:25 Well, it's because, I mean, your mom, and I would imagine that this maybe makes
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 it even more challenging. Like, there are a lot of people out there who,
00:15:28 --> 00:15:31 on Mother's Day or on Father's Day, have lost that parent.
00:15:32 --> 00:15:37 Like, for instance, this is going to be a really hard Mother's Day for my family
00:15:37 --> 00:15:42 because only a few months ago, we lost my mother-in-law. Mm-hmm.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:52 We were all, I mean, as close as I am with my mom, I considered myself so lucky to have two moms.
00:15:52 --> 00:15:57 I mean, my mother-in-law was my mother-in-law from the time I was 17 until a couple of months ago.
00:15:57 --> 00:16:00 And as much a mother to me as my own mother.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:04 And so that loss, that's a hard one.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:07 That's going to be a really hard one. So she passed away.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:12 She's gone. And, you know, on Father's Day, I have those same sadnesses for
00:16:12 --> 00:16:14 my own father. But this is different.
00:16:14 --> 00:16:20 This is, you know, I feel like, of course, there's a ton of this kind of situation
00:16:20 --> 00:16:25 in the world where parent and child are not close and they're both alive and
00:16:25 --> 00:16:26 well, but they're not in each other's lives.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:32 It's just not as common, potentially. Well, actually, this whole no contact,
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 low contact is a trending topic, actually.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:42 Oh, that I know. I know. Yeah. And so it's interesting that...
00:16:43 --> 00:16:48 So, my dad's been gone for three years now. He passed away from cancer.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 Father's Day doesn't hit me the same way.
00:16:52 --> 00:17:03 It's like losing somebody by death is easier than losing somebody that is actively
00:17:03 --> 00:17:05 choosing, who is still alive,
00:17:05 --> 00:17:09 and actively choosing to cut you out of their life. Well, right.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:14 That's what I mean. That's why I'm saying how, I mean, it's one thing when someone
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 passes away, that's beyond anyone's control.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:21 There is no, right, exactly. There's no choice. But in this case,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:27 and I know no contact is significantly more mainstream as a topic and a situation
00:17:27 --> 00:17:31 now than it ever was, I feel like.
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33 Like, it might not be as common as, you know, death and divorce,
00:17:34 --> 00:17:35 but it's certainly up there.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:42 I mean, that's what I'm focused on is how does that even feel like that?
00:17:42 --> 00:17:47 It has to be worse, I think, in some ways where you're like, but they're there.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:56 They're there. And the big, you know, me, it's a torture where I want to call her.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:00 I want to have that relationship with her. I just know it's not possible.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:06 And what is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over,
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 expecting different results. And I did that for years.
00:18:09 --> 00:18:16 And I realized the final straw for me was a year ago.
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of The Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:26 If you're listening right now and you're not okay, if you're feeling overwhelmed,
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 stuck, or like you're carrying more than you can handle, please know you don't
00:18:30 --> 00:18:31 have to go through it alone.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:39 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:18:39 --> 00:18:42 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 Reaching out is a brave first step, and you owe it to yourself.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:53 Because your life matters, your story matters, and help is always just three numbers away.
00:18:56 --> 00:19:00 When Monroe passed away, for those of you that are listening,
00:19:00 --> 00:19:02 I have, I've lost five brothers to suicide.
00:19:03 --> 00:19:06 And the most recent one was in March of 2025, Monroe.
00:19:07 --> 00:19:08 And he, this was actually of
00:19:08 --> 00:19:13 the five, this was the first one that was biologically my mother's child.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:17 And it hit her differently, even though she said the others were the same,
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 but we could all see it hit her differently.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 But I did fly, you know, I was living in Virginia, and, you know,
00:19:24 --> 00:19:28 my relationship with my mom was okay at the time, and what do I,
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29 you know, it's just what I do.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 I handled the funeral arrangements. I flew out there. I handled everything.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 I mean the morning after the news I
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 was you know I was told I was you know the
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 phone making funeral arrangements I handled everything and
00:19:42 --> 00:19:48 I flew out to Utah and I took care of my mom for two solid weeks completely
00:19:48 --> 00:19:59 abandoning myself and my needs to where I came home and I crashed and I slept.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 For three days straight.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 I did not leave my bedroom for seven days.
00:20:06 --> 00:20:13 And I ended up with a kidney infection. Oh, wow. Because I was not taking care of myself.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:18 And, you know, partway through the trip, I was telling Jenny,
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 I'm like, Jenny, I can't, I can't keep up with her. She won't stop.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:26 She's hosting parties. She's having people over. She's having, it was insane.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:33 It was absolute insanity i was like jenny i am gonna i am gonna snap having already had a mental,
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 breakdown after my dad died from handling too many
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 funerals too close together and i could feel another one
00:20:39 --> 00:20:44 coming on it's called a tia and i
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 i finally texted jenny and i said jenny i
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 need because she my mom wouldn't listen to me and when
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 i asked her i said mom can we please slow down can we please stop going
00:20:53 --> 00:20:57 and seeing these people doing this doing that i can't i need to rest and you
00:20:57 --> 00:21:03 do too but she was trying to outrun her grief yeah and so we all know that doesn't
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 work yeah and so Jenny came over the next day and was like look you're gonna
00:21:07 --> 00:21:11 break Natasha if you don't knock it off so we're done with these dinner parties
00:21:11 --> 00:21:12 we're done doing all this stuff,
00:21:13 --> 00:21:16 you gotta stop and so.
00:21:17 --> 00:21:23 So she listened to Ginny, but I realized that I completely abandoned myself
00:21:23 --> 00:21:27 and my needs for my mother. And it still was not enough.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:35 Do you think that she was pissed at you because the reason why Ginny told her
00:21:35 --> 00:21:38 to slow down was because of you? It's possible.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:43 Like I just wondered if she harbored that and it was like well Natasha's the one who,
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 you know isn't keeping up or whatever it
00:21:46 --> 00:21:51 would be she would think about that well I know that you know in conversations
00:21:51 --> 00:21:57 with Jenny afterwards or my aunts they you know mom sung all my praises oh Natasha
00:21:57 --> 00:22:01 handled everything she did an amazing job I couldn't have done it without her
00:22:01 --> 00:22:05 you know she sung all my praises you know and.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:12 But then, you know, weeks and months went by. I continued to check on her and everything.
00:22:12 --> 00:22:16 And then, you know, she called me one day to vent about something.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:24 And she just talked about her and her life for a solid 45 minutes and never
00:22:24 --> 00:22:28 once asked me about me or my children.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:32 Yeah, that's hard. That's hard. Yeah. And so, and then, you know,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:37 at the point in which the whole no contact this time has occurred is when we
00:22:37 --> 00:22:39 started, I started this podcast with you.
00:22:39 --> 00:22:44 Yeah. When, you know, I started speaking my truth about what I endured as a
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 child and that painted my mother in a negative light.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 And so I have not heard from my sense that, or anyone in my family for that
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 matter, since these episodes have gone live.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 Yeah. And I feel horrible about that. I just feel...
00:23:00 --> 00:23:06 Such sadness for you that that was the response that you got.
00:23:07 --> 00:23:12 Because you are entitled to share your story and your truth,
00:23:12 --> 00:23:18 and you have been victimized in so many different ways. Like,
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 I know you mentioned that you lost five brothers to suicide.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:28 What people may or may not know is that you were also the victim of sexual abuse by your brother.
00:23:28 --> 00:23:33 You've had a lot of domestic abuse from siblings and also your mom.
00:23:34 --> 00:23:41 And you've had your own multiple suicide attempts. So you have been through it.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:49 You have been through it. And to not allow you, not respect your ability to
00:23:49 --> 00:23:53 share your own story and not support that just makes me sad.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:58 It just makes me sad that you aren't getting what you deserve to be getting from your family.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:01 Well, you know, I just...
00:24:02 --> 00:24:07 There's a part of me that when I realized, wow, for the first time,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:11 I was actually able to openly speak about what happened to me and be honest
00:24:11 --> 00:24:16 about it, and I was met with that, and with that silence,
00:24:16 --> 00:24:21 where, you know, there's other people in my life, cousins or friends or whatever,
00:24:21 --> 00:24:24 that have come to me and said, oh my God, I had no idea that you were dealing
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 with all this for so many years.
00:24:26 --> 00:24:35 Thank you for having the courage to speak about it it just it just cemented the realization that i.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:39 No longer have what i call an origin family
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 and they're exactly that they're my origin i
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 have my creation family with george and the kids and that's
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 what i focus on and i know with
00:24:48 --> 00:24:52 time it will get easier and you
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 know people are like oh well you can reconnect yet and it's like
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58 again it's not it's not
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 just up to you though it's not right and
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04 i'm done doing all the work to keep a relationship alive you
00:25:04 --> 00:25:07 know what i mean when you really take a step back and and
00:25:07 --> 00:25:12 look at it and go okay if i stop doing all the work to keep the relationships
00:25:12 --> 00:25:17 alive especially moving across the country the relationships die and so i just
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19 wasn't willing to do that anymore
00:25:19 --> 00:25:25 you know And I know that I have to model for my children the kind of,
00:25:25 --> 00:25:29 you know, by me continuing to accept that kind of behavior from my family,
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 I'm not modeling anything good for my children.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:40 That's, you know, I have to show them what kind of what respect looks like and respect for myself.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:44 You know what I mean? And I look at the way, you know, when we recorded those
00:25:44 --> 00:25:47 episodes with your mom and to see your interaction with you two,
00:25:47 --> 00:25:50 it just, it warms my heart. It really does.
00:25:51 --> 00:25:56 To see that beautiful, amazing love that you're, that you two have.
00:25:56 --> 00:26:00 It just, it gives me hope that I will have that.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:04 And I do have that with my children. And, you know, I've said it before,
00:26:04 --> 00:26:11 but I will go to the ends of the earth to stop the toxic family cycles that
00:26:11 --> 00:26:15 have gone on for generations within my family.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:18 And you're doing that, and you should celebrate that.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:23 I hope that you celebrate that. And I know that your kids are a little too young
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 to know everything about your past.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:31 I know that, like, bit by bit, little things have come out. You've disclosed
00:26:31 --> 00:26:33 certain things, but there's an awful lot more to go.
00:26:33 --> 00:26:37 And over time, of course, they'll learn the whole truth.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:42 But they know. They know what.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:50 That they have a mother and a father who unconditionally loves and supports them in every way.
00:26:51 --> 00:26:57 And it sucks that you didn't have that in the way that you should have,
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 that you deserve to have that.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:03 And it sucks that you have this no contact with your mom.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 For the record, my mother, I believe, has officially adopted you.
00:27:08 --> 00:27:11 For the record. She loves you.
00:27:11 --> 00:27:15 So, I mean, well, she she does.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:21 She adores you. But the point is that, you know, I it's it's hard because I
00:27:21 --> 00:27:24 I appreciate what you're saying about my relationship with my mom.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:27 And I know that to be true because that's it's my relationship with my mom.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 And I'm grateful for that every second of every day of my life.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 And obviously the one that I have with my own children as well.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 But, you know, it doesn't change the fact that I know what yours is.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:39 And I feel badly about that.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 I hate that that is your experience.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:48 And I know that there are so many people who are going to listen to this conversation
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 and say, oh, Jesus Christ. So me too, me too, me too.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:55 Like, I don't have contact or I don't have the—and even if you do have contact,
00:27:55 --> 00:28:00 you may not have the relationship that you want with your kids or with your
00:28:00 --> 00:28:05 parent or even with your spouse. This doesn't just extend to Mother's Day.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:08 It extends to all relationships.
00:28:08 --> 00:28:13 All the days, yep, and all the different types of relationships that we have.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:17 There is a bit of information that I do feel is pertinent.
00:28:17 --> 00:28:22 You know, I listen to a lot of podcasts and read a lot of, you know,
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 I probably should have been a psychology major.
00:28:24 --> 00:28:30 But right now, a lot of the leading psychology experts say that.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:35 The relationship, the health of a relationship between a parent and a child
00:28:35 --> 00:28:41 is solely on the parent because of the power dynamic.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:48 If you don't have a healthy relation, it is, yeah, solely on the parent.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:53 And a parent, a child can go no contact with a parent.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:57 But when a parent goes no contact with a child, even into adulthood,
00:28:58 --> 00:28:59 it becomes abandonment.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:04 That's interesting. That's very interesting and very accurate, too.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:09 I mean, look, when you're talking about children, young children,
00:29:09 --> 00:29:16 teenage children, even high school, college-age children who aren't fully developed yet emotionally.
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 Mentally, physically, spiritually, all those parts that make us human,
00:29:22 --> 00:29:29 you can't expect a child to make good, rational decisions about their interactions,
00:29:29 --> 00:29:30 about their behavior, all those things.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 But an adult damn well better know better.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:41 A parent knows better. And, you know, we sign on for parenthood not expecting
00:29:41 --> 00:29:46 that there aren't going to be any obstacles along the way.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 You know, I mean, there's going to be challenge and drama and heartache and
00:29:49 --> 00:29:55 disappointment and so much of what I think we all envision about parenthood
00:29:55 --> 00:30:01 when we start out is not what parenthood ends up being when we're in the thick of it.
00:30:01 --> 00:30:05 And a lot of it is all of those, you know, beautiful, wonderful, warm moments.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:11 And a lot of it isn't. And you have had a disproportionate amount of those moments
00:30:11 --> 00:30:19 that are not good moments, are not healthy and, you know, and enriching moments.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:26 And what you're doing is so actively breaking that cycle with your kids that,
00:30:26 --> 00:30:32 yes, you can grieve what you don't have with your mom.
00:30:33 --> 00:30:38 But hopefully there's some constellation in what you're building with your own children.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:45 There is. I hope so. I hope so. Because I've seen that relationship in action
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 with you and your kids, especially with you and your daughter. And it's beautiful.
00:30:50 --> 00:30:55 It's just the kind that warms your heart. So what will Mother's Day look like
00:30:55 --> 00:30:56 for you? What will it look like for you?
00:30:57 --> 00:31:03 Well, George always makes me lemon ricotta pancakes with a very compote.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:07 For breakfast. He's so Martha Stewart. He is.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 Yeah, him and the kids make me breakfast in bed.
00:31:13 --> 00:31:21 And then I just leave it up to them, however that looks. I try not to have any expectations.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25 But, yeah, they always cook me breakfast and dinner.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:29 And, you know, we just kind of hang out and spend time together as a family.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:34 And again, it comes down to it's not chaotic and there's no,
00:31:34 --> 00:31:40 I like that there's no expectations because when I lived in Utah before and growing up, it was,
00:31:40 --> 00:31:47 it always had to be this big grand gesture and all the things because it's just how it was.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:52 And so I like that it's, our holidays are more chill.
00:31:53 --> 00:32:00 Yeah. And we're just allowed to be, and it's not always a big production in that, too.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:04 So, you know, in this Mother's Day, and I read a quote earlier.
00:32:05 --> 00:32:10 And it said something along the lines of, if I could go back in time,
00:32:10 --> 00:32:17 I would mother my mother the way I mother my daughter and hopefully love her
00:32:17 --> 00:32:25 and cherish her in a way that I wouldn't have to spend my lifetime healing from her.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:29 Because I know that she didn't get the love and care that she deserved.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:35 Deserved you know that's how I I guess in my mind I try to rationalize it because
00:32:35 --> 00:32:39 I do remember my mom telling me that she knew at a very young age she's young
00:32:39 --> 00:32:45 as four or five years old that her mother didn't like her and what a hard thing
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 for a four or five year old to internalize and right.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:54 You know and and I was very fortunate that you know I knew that my there's a
00:32:54 --> 00:32:58 big age gap between me and my little brother, Ward, and so I was my mom's last,
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00 what she thought was going to be her last.
00:33:00 --> 00:33:05 And so I do have some very fond memories with her when I was very young.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:10 And again, I know she's capable of being a good mother.
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14 She just didn't continue that on.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:19 And so, yeah, I just...
00:33:20 --> 00:33:24 You know, I think that, you know, so much of what we talk about is surviving,
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 surviving all different types of things.
00:33:27 --> 00:33:32 And in this case, like surviving, sometimes it just means holding,
00:33:32 --> 00:33:38 I think, holding on to the things that you have that are the good things and
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 prioritizing those things.
00:33:40 --> 00:33:44 And it means letting go of the things that you have to let go of and creating
00:33:44 --> 00:33:52 boundaries and making sure that your needs are met. And that's what you're doing.
00:33:53 --> 00:33:57 And, you know, you're allowing your heart to be filled up with the things that
00:33:57 --> 00:34:01 you have control over that mean the most to you.
00:34:01 --> 00:34:06 And, you know, I think that's the essence of what we should all be doing for
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 ourselves is to prioritize what's important and lean into those things.
00:34:09 --> 00:34:15 And so you get to lean into the pancakes and the compote very hard. Yeah,
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 it's, you know, I, I love my mother. I do.
00:34:22 --> 00:34:28 I will, I will never not love her. That is hardwired, you know, into us as children.
00:34:29 --> 00:34:31 It doesn't matter, you know, kids that are.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:37 Absolutely treated far worse than I ever was still love their mothers.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:44 You know, you just have to choose to love them from afar to protect yourself,
00:34:45 --> 00:34:46 you know, and that's okay.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:52 If that's what you have to do on Mother's Day or any holiday for any parent,
00:34:52 --> 00:34:59 you know, if you have to love somebody from afar to protect yourself, that is 100% okay.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:03 And you don't have to beat yourself up for feeling that way.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:09 Absolutely because protecting your peace is the most important thing for you,
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 Absolutely. As an individual. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:19 So to you, my beautiful friend, I say happy early Mother's Day to you.
00:35:20 --> 00:35:26 And I hope that it is a day for you and for everybody else out there who is
00:35:26 --> 00:35:34 celebrating their own motherhood or a relationship with their mother or in any
00:35:34 --> 00:35:36 way, shape or form, acknowledging the day.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:39 I hope it's what it needs to be for you.
00:35:40 --> 00:35:46 To be special. So with that, we'll wrap it and we'll come back next week because
00:35:46 --> 00:35:51 it's also Mental Health Awareness Month and we have a lot to talk about.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 So we'll meet back here next Wednesday and start digging in.
00:35:56 --> 00:36:00 Happy Mother's Day out there. Happy Mother's Day. Keep surviving, friends.
00:36:01 --> 00:36:05 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:10 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:36:10 --> 00:36:14 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:36:14 --> 00:36:18 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:36:18 --> 00:36:23 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:29 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:36:33 --> 00:36:34 help is always out there.
00:36:34 --> 00:36:39 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:36:39 --> 00:36:43 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:36:43 --> 00:36:46 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:50 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:36:50 --> 00:36:54 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:36:54 --> 00:36:59 Until then, take care of yourself and your people, and keep surviving.