*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this heartfelt conversation, Lisa and Natasha explore the complexities of navigating the holiday season, particularly for those dealing with grief and mental health challenges. They discuss the societal pressures to appear joyful, the impact of social media on self-perception, and the importance of setting boundaries. The conversation emphasizes the need for authenticity, self-care, and the significance of meaningful connections during a time that can often feel overwhelming.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Takeaways
- The holiday season can amplify feelings of grief and loss.
- It's okay to not feel joyful during the holidays.
- Social media often portrays a curated version of happiness that can be misleading.
- Setting boundaries is crucial for mental well-being during the holidays.
- Family dynamics can add pressure to conform to expectations.
- It's important to honor your feelings and not feel obligated to attend events.
- Authenticity in relationships is key; true friends will support you in tough times.
- Children remember the time spent together more than material gifts.
- You don't have to perform happiness for others' comfort.
- Self-care should be prioritized over societal expectations.
Chapters
00:00 Navigating the Holiday Season 02:56 The Pressure to Be Joyful 05:53 Understanding Grief and Loss 08:53 The Impact of Social Media 12:02 Setting Boundaries During the Holidays 15:05 The Reality of Family Dynamics 18:03 The Struggle of Pretending to Be Fine 20:48 Parenting Through Difficult Times 23:45 Creating Meaningful Holiday Memories 27:04 Embracing Authenticity and Presence
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:32 Well, hey. What's going on? You know, living in a fuchsia world right now.
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 Fuchsia world? Yeah. If you can't see me, I'm wearing a fuchsia sweater if you're
00:00:35 --> 00:00:36 just listening to the audio.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:40 And she looks fabulous in it. I absolutely love it. Thank you.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:44 Thank you. I was just saying that I was afraid that when we go to Japan in a
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 couple of weeks to visit my daughter, that she's going to steal this sweater.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:54 And then I remembered that she has the same one. So I am safe and bringing the sweater with me.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:58 So I'll be fuchsia all over the world. Well, and you in your Be Kind sweatshirt
00:00:58 --> 00:01:01 looking very appropriate for the holidays.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:06 All right. So there's the giveaway.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:14 It's a holiday episode. We're on the fringe of Christmas and New Year and all
00:01:14 --> 00:01:17 the super happy time where everybody has to be happy all the time,
00:01:17 --> 00:01:19 no matter how you feel on the inside, right?
00:01:20 --> 00:01:26 This season hits hard. I know that there's such a mix of people,
00:01:26 --> 00:01:32 like you look at it from a social media perspective, and there's the whole half
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 of social media that's just like,
00:01:34 --> 00:01:36 everything is picture perfect. Everything is perfectly curated.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:40 Everybody is in the spirit and outdoing everybody else.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:44 And then you have the other exact half of the internet who's just like,
00:01:44 --> 00:01:49 fuck these holidays. I'm miserable. I'm not happy.
00:01:49 --> 00:01:52 This is not okay. I'm suffering. I don't feel joy.
00:01:52 --> 00:01:56 And I feel like there's so much
00:01:56 --> 00:02:00 pressure. There's so much performative pressure. You got to be joyful.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:04 And we touched on this, you and I, before Thanksgiving. But.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:08 We should really dig it. Like, I feel like we should really dig into that.
00:02:08 --> 00:02:16 Like, give people permission to not have to show up in a way that is not authentic to how they feel.
00:02:16 --> 00:02:20 Are you with me on that conversation right now?
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I can totally relate to that. You know,
00:02:23 --> 00:02:27 the family expectation of being at a party so you didn't want to go to.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:31 Or if you don't feel safe in the presence of a family member,
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 you have to go. Like, no, you don't.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:39 If you do not have the energy, and I come back to this a lot,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:45 especially in the last five years, honoring your body, listening to your body.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:50 And if your body, and it often comes in just like a little, hey, let's not do this.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:53 And then it just comes faster and faster and faster and more often.
00:02:55 --> 00:02:59 And if you're getting a solid no repeatedly, your body is telling you it's not
00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 a safe place or that you cannot handle that situation. And that can be with
00:03:03 --> 00:03:05 any situation and you need to listen to it.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 Yeah, yeah. That's such a good reminder. I mean, the holidays,
00:03:09 --> 00:03:10 I feel like there can be kind of a minefield.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:16 That's just like the image that I get in my own brain full of triggers for a lot of people.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:21 Lots of memories, some good, some not good. People that you've distanced yourself from.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 Situations that remind you of people you've lost. I mean,
00:03:25 --> 00:03:29 we talked a lot for our Thanksgiving episode about kind of the empty chair effect,
00:03:29 --> 00:03:34 when there are chairs that used to have our people that don't have our people
00:03:34 --> 00:03:38 and the sadness around all of that. Well, this is an extension of that.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:41 We're just moving into another different set of holidays that for a lot of people
00:03:41 --> 00:03:45 are just as hard as Thanksgiving was.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:53 So for both of us, I know that the holidays come with kind of a mixed bag of emotion, right?
00:03:53 --> 00:03:58 You and I have talked about that a lot. Not just loss, but also pressure.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:04 So what do you feel like, and I'm curious and I'm happy to answer the same question,
00:04:04 --> 00:04:08 but what is that pressure for you to be okay in?
00:04:09 --> 00:04:14 Look like now well now
00:04:14 --> 00:04:18 and this will be our first christmas well
00:04:18 --> 00:04:21 not with family in a couple of years right
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 because you moved you were in utah and now you're in virginia well we were in
00:04:24 --> 00:04:29 virginia for seven years we'd be back to utah for two years and now we're back
00:04:29 --> 00:04:34 in virginia and i will say the pressure that i fell around the holidays when
00:04:34 --> 00:04:40 i was around my family is more immense to perform to do would be and show up
00:04:40 --> 00:04:41 at all these different parties.
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 And it's absolutely, man.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 So when I say that I had to move across the country to get peace,
00:04:49 --> 00:04:54 100%. And so the pressure that I felt during the holidays when I'm in Virginia
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 with just me and my little core family, it's a whole different vibe.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:02 It's so peaceful. It's so calm. But then also I get these memories of remembering
00:05:02 --> 00:05:04 my childhood with a house full of kids.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:09 And when we were excommunicated, we could finally actually celebrate Christmas and all that stuff.
00:05:09 --> 00:05:15 And so it's, my mind is constantly present and in the past.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:21 It is so hard for me to fully engage and be present in any given moment.
00:05:21 --> 00:05:27 I posted a social media little theme a week or so ago, and I said,
00:05:27 --> 00:05:32 I'm physically present, but my mind is constantly battling demons I didn't create.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:36 Yeah, yeah. I think it's important for anybody who's just listening,
00:05:36 --> 00:05:40 if this is your first time tuning into The Survivors and you don't know Natasha
00:05:40 --> 00:05:45 and you don't know me, you know, obviously, because of the title of our show
00:05:45 --> 00:05:46 that we're The Survivors.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 But I've survived three different suicide losses, my father, friend, and a cousin.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:56 And Natasha has survived the suicides of five of her brothers,
00:05:56 --> 00:05:59 three of her own attempts, sexual abuse from her own brother.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:07 Physical abuse at the hands of not only her mother, but her siblings.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:13 And you grew up as a part of the FLDS polygamy cult, and Warren Jeffs is your
00:06:13 --> 00:06:16 uncle. So when you talk about excommunication and when you talk about a huge
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 family, there were 20 kids in your family, that's what Natasha brings to today's conversation.
00:06:21 --> 00:06:26 I'm laughing because it's just like almost unbelievable that this is all your
00:06:26 --> 00:06:31 life. It's more like a reactionary kind of laughter.
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 You and I talk about this all the time. It's just like the holy shitness of it all.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 You know what I mean? Yeah, and so I have to apologize beforehand.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:43 I don't laugh because it's an easy subject to talk about. I laugh because that
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 is my coping mechanism to deal with so much trauma.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:48 You don't have to apologize for that.
00:06:49 --> 00:06:53 I know, but, you know, I care about our listeners, and I don't ever want them
00:06:53 --> 00:06:57 to think that I take any of this lightly. I know that life is hard. Yeah.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:02 But I just, I want them to know that I genuinely don't want to be insensitive
00:07:02 --> 00:07:05 and I do care about them. Fair. Nope, fair. And their experience.
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 Well, now you see why I love Natasha so much because she cares about literally everybody.
00:07:11 --> 00:07:16 It's true. It's true. All right. So I think one of the hardest things about
00:07:16 --> 00:07:20 the holidays, or at least this is my take, is that they come with this built-in,
00:07:20 --> 00:07:24 like, myth that everybody is happy.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 Tell me how much of this you agree with or disagree with.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 That everybody has to be happy, like that life has to go on hold.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:35 Like if you're hypothetically grieving someone, well, you can't grieve over
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 Christmas because we've got Christmas. So you can't grieve over the holiday,
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 the New Year holiday, because we got to celebrate New Year's Eve.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:46 Like you got to just kind of put that in the box and then get back to it after,
00:07:46 --> 00:07:47 but not during the holiday.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 It's going to be joyful because that makes everybody else who's celebrating uncomfortable.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:57 You know, that just because a family may be close and just because you may have
00:07:57 --> 00:08:03 a really good support system, that that love and that joyful time of year fixes everything.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 And it doesn't.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:10 I don't think it does. A lot of people out there are grieving.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:16 And the irony is we're talking, you and I, about loss because of our own personal experience.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:21 Just between us, you and I have lost eight people. to suicide.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:27 I mean, just between... I never thought about that before until literally...
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29 I never did that simple math. But,
00:08:30 --> 00:08:34 That's what you and I talk a lot about. In your case, we talk about lost childhood,
00:08:34 --> 00:08:36 loss of innocence, things like that.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 But most people, when they think about loss and grief, they think about,
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 well, I'm sad because I lost a human.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:45 Well, what about I'm sad because my dog just died before Christmas,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 or I'm sad because I lost my job, or I broke up with my partner,
00:08:48 --> 00:08:55 or I had to sell my house, or I am homeless. There are so many different things
00:08:55 --> 00:08:57 that somebody in this world could be grieving.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:04 A lot of people are jobless. A lot of people are in recovery and don't have support systems.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:09 A lot of people don't even have a table to eat at for the holidays or any other day.
00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 You know, but nobody posts that on Instagram in the same way that they do their
00:09:13 --> 00:09:18 perfectly curated little Amazon finds Christmas stuff.
00:09:18 --> 00:09:22 Post. You know what I mean? You know, I have to, when you talk about the perfectly
00:09:22 --> 00:09:28 curated life, I do love the shift in social media, particularly on TikTok.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 People are being more authentic. And there's a lot of people gravitating towards
00:09:32 --> 00:09:36 TikTok because the realness is there where it's not like this perfectly curated
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 what you see like on Instagram, particularly in Facebook.
00:09:40 --> 00:09:47 So I have to say more people, and I'm seeing this shift kind of in society and
00:09:47 --> 00:09:51 the overall consciousness is people are seeking realness and authenticity,
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 more than the perfectly curated because more of life is the raw,
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 real stuff and not this perfectly curated thing.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:05 That's perfectly created what was so prevalent in social media for the past
00:10:05 --> 00:10:09 15 years has made people feel so alone in their journeys.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 It was whereas now people are shifting to more real stuff and there's been a
00:10:13 --> 00:10:14 lot more authentic connection.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:19 And such a feeling of insecurity too, like measuring up, like I'm not enough.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:24 Like if I don't have what that person has in their feed and I don't have a relationship
00:10:24 --> 00:10:29 that and I'm doing lots of air quotes today that looks joyful and romanticized
00:10:29 --> 00:10:35 and I don't have the perfect fit on and I don't have the perfect face full of
00:10:35 --> 00:10:39 makeup and hair and all the things that that I'm less than.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:42 And that's awful. I know how it affects as the mother of two daughters.
00:10:42 --> 00:10:46 And obviously, my my kids are older now. They're in their 20s and living on their own.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:52 So you worry about how that kind of culture and attitude affects your children.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 But it doesn't just stop with our kids.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:57 You don't think that we as adults who are consuming the same kinds of bullshit
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 content, that we're not affected by that?
00:11:00 --> 00:11:05 You don't think as a grown woman, like I'm in my, now, God, I'm in my late 50s at this point.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 And I look at this stuff every once in a while and I'm like, huh.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 It kind of makes you question like, well, should my table look like that?
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 Or should my face look like that? Or should I be that size? You know,
00:11:17 --> 00:11:19 look, it affects everybody. It's toxic.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:27 So I totally agree with you with the pleasant shift in that TikTok algorithm
00:11:27 --> 00:11:31 or, you know, mindset, which is people just come and kind of come in as you are. Yeah.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:37 And I also want to say that if you are experiencing a really difficult time
00:11:37 --> 00:11:42 during the holidays, and say, for example, you did RSVP to said holiday party or whatever,
00:11:42 --> 00:11:49 and if you don't feel comfortable or safe telling the host or hostess,
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 hey, I'm going through a really hard time.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 And I'm sorry, I did say I was coming, but I'm not going to be able to make it.
00:11:56 --> 00:12:01 If you don't feel safe enough in that relationship to be wholly open and honest,
00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 you need to reevaluate that relationship,
00:12:03 --> 00:12:07 whether or not that is a safe relationship for you to even be in.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 That's such a powerful point. I'm so glad you made it. And you said it so well.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:18 I don't even have any single word to add to that. It all goes back to feeling
00:12:18 --> 00:12:23 like each of us has the right to pick and choose something.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:29 Where we spend our time, who we spend our time with, and how we spend it.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:35 And I think everybody on some level is a people pleaser to some degree.
00:12:36 --> 00:12:37 Most people are. I know I am.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 And so it's really hard to disappoint somebody, especially somebody you care
00:12:41 --> 00:12:46 about, especially somebody you consider to be a friend, and you don't want to be the buzzkill.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:51 You don't want to be the one to RSVP, no, I can't be there.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:55 But the reality is you've got two choices. You either do something for the benefit
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58 of somebody else, and then you're not okay.
00:12:58 --> 00:13:02 Or you honor where you're at, and you say to your person, hey,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:07 listen, I need you to kind of meet me where I am right now, and I'm not feeling
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 joyful right now. This is happening to me.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:17 Or I'm dealing with a situation, and I just need you to take it for what it
00:13:17 --> 00:13:18 is and know that it's not you.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 It's really about what I need for myself. And you're so right that it really,
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 I think, is a good gauge of a relationship.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:32 It's an interesting way to figure out like, okay, is this my person who's going
00:13:32 --> 00:13:36 to really be there to support me when I need it?
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 Or is it performative? Glad you brought that up.
00:13:39 --> 00:13:43 When you're going through a hard time, yeah and
00:13:43 --> 00:13:47 i've learned this over the last several years how people show up for you in
00:13:47 --> 00:13:53 your darkest times those are your people yeah 100 those are your people if if
00:13:53 --> 00:13:58 somebody can't and and i look back at this when we lost four family members
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 in five months and i look back and i remember,
00:14:01 --> 00:14:07 who didn't reach out i'm kind of like you're an asshole and i i get it it was
00:14:07 --> 00:14:09 a lot like more than and most people didn't know what to say.
00:14:10 --> 00:14:14 But if you couldn't take 30 seconds and be like, I am so sorry for your loss.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:19 I kind of had to look and reevaluate a lot of relationships.
00:14:19 --> 00:14:26 I'm sure. And you know what? Look, I recognize that the way that everybody reacts
00:14:26 --> 00:14:27 to grief is very different.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 And some people have the capacity to show up in those circumstances.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 Some people just like viscerally, like they can't do it.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:37 But I do agree with you that, okay, if you don't feel like you can show up at
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 someone's door and throw your arms around them and be in a room with them because
00:14:40 --> 00:14:43 you're petrified of what to say and how awkward it could feel and saying the
00:14:43 --> 00:14:44 wrong thing, like I get that.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 But in this day and age, you can, that's why I'm saying I totally agree with what you just said.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:54 Like, at the very, very least, you pick up your phone and you send a text like,
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 hey, I want to be there for you. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do.
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 I just want you to know I'm thinking about you. I'm so sorry. Period.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:05 Send. Yeah. That's it. That's it. And you know what I found out over the years,
00:15:05 --> 00:15:11 just through experiences with different people in different situations over the course of my life?
00:15:12 --> 00:15:18 It blows my mind that in situations where you expect people to show up for you,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:22 the good stuff and the bad stuff, it always amazes me that the people that you
00:15:22 --> 00:15:26 think, without a doubt, are the ones that are going to be there.
00:15:26 --> 00:15:29 Like front and center, they're going to show up.
00:15:29 --> 00:15:33 They are most often the ones who don't. And it's the ones that you never,
00:15:34 --> 00:15:38 ever expected who end up showing up in the biggest and most beautiful ways.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:44 And that always just kind of floors me every time that continues to happen in my own life.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 And I don't know, just felt like it was relevant to the conversation.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:52 Yeah, so if you don't feel like you can show up for somebody that way,
00:15:52 --> 00:15:57 or vice versa, I always try to look at any kind of situation on both sides.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:04 Is that relationship even worth fostering? And even if it is a family member,
00:16:04 --> 00:16:10 that is something I have struggled with forever, especially with family,
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 because that is so ingrained in us.
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 Just because they're family doesn't
00:16:15 --> 00:16:19 mean they get access to you or you're required to give of yourself.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 And holidays are so much about family. Mm-hmm.
00:16:23 --> 00:16:30 And it doesn't mean that they have permission just because they're a cousin or a brother or a sister.
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 They don't have permission to hurt
00:16:33 --> 00:16:37 you just because they have that classification as a part of your family.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:42 Yeah. And you're not required to show up and just overly give of yourself just
00:16:42 --> 00:16:46 because that person is family. No, you're absolutely right. You don't.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 And you shouldn't. You shouldn't.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:52 So let's shift gears. Let's talk for a second about...
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 Something I'm sure you've said a million times. I know I've said it a million
00:16:56 --> 00:17:00 times. I can see myself saying it, hear it. I'm fine. I'm fine.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 Oh, I'm fine. How are you? I'm totally fine. I'm great. I feel like that's everybody's
00:17:04 --> 00:17:10 default mode, more so the survivor default mode.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:17 Because I feel like a lot of people just can't handle other people's stuff.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:23 And so you don't want to be a burden, especially at a time when everyone feels
00:17:23 --> 00:17:30 this incredible compulsion to be joyful and happy because it's the season and
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32 everybody has to be in the spirit.
00:17:32 --> 00:17:37 So you don't want to be that person who isn't fine.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:44 And so you show up and you smile and you fake it and you compliment the food
00:17:44 --> 00:17:49 and whatever and the table and you keep everything surface level and then you're dying inside.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:53 Have you ever been in that situation? I've been in that situation. Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:17:54 --> 00:18:00 100%. When Corey passed away in 2022, it was the week before Thanksgiving and
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 we still had Thanksgiving like it was normal.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 I mean, we didn't hide it, but I just remember my mom always,
00:18:07 --> 00:18:11 she does pie and coffee in the morning and that particular day,
00:18:12 --> 00:18:16 it just hit me really hard and I remember driving over that morning and it just
00:18:16 --> 00:18:20 really hit me and everything in me was screaming, don't go, don't go, don't go.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:26 But I had this pie and we were arriving late and I just walked in and I could
00:18:26 --> 00:18:28 tell everybody could see that there was,
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 something wrong with me. You know, because I carried it. I carry my emotions
00:18:32 --> 00:18:36 on my sleeve, but I had to just pretend like everything was okay,
00:18:36 --> 00:18:39 even though everything inside of me, and I know for everybody else,
00:18:39 --> 00:18:40 again, because I care about other people,
00:18:41 --> 00:18:44 was screaming inside, but I was just having a really hard time pretending it
00:18:44 --> 00:18:48 was okay, and we had to continue on with this damn holiday, even though Corey
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 had just died the week before, or two weeks before.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 I just, you don't have to pretend.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 No, we shouldn't be. We shouldn't be. And that's why I love that we're having
00:18:58 --> 00:19:02 this part of this conversation, because I think this right here is the essence
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 of everything that you and I wanted this conversation to be about.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:11 It's telling people who are, if you're listening in right now and you're stressing
00:19:11 --> 00:19:17 because you've got somewhere to be or you've got to fly across the country to
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 be somewhere with people who you don't want to be with that's going to make
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 you feel triggered and uncomfortable and unsettled,
00:19:23 --> 00:19:27 give yourself grace to say no.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:36 You get to do that. You are allowed to be straight up exactly who you are.
00:19:36 --> 00:19:41 You don't have to protect other people from your pain or your loss or grief or sadness.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:47 You are allowed to say, I'm not okay today or I'm not feeling like coming to the thing.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:53 And you don't have to be the one holding the peace together and the joy together
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 for everybody else while you're falling apart inside.
00:19:56 --> 00:20:01 You just don't. And I'll tell you, I think that kind of thing,
00:20:01 --> 00:20:06 honestly, for me has been what I've worked hardest. And this is all tied to boundaries.
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 I guess the bigger issue that we're talking about is boundaries.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:14 That's the thing that I've worked on the most in the last probably four years
00:20:14 --> 00:20:21 that I've been back in therapy. And I love how I feel about that inside now.
00:20:21 --> 00:20:26 I just recently, it's not related to a holiday or going through the motions
00:20:26 --> 00:20:32 kind of thing, but it had to do with going to be with someone else.
00:20:33 --> 00:20:38 That I was invited to be with, and I didn't want to go.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:42 And there was an expectation that I would go.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:47 And I knew that it was pushing outside of my boundaries and that it was going
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 to deplete me and that it wasn't right for me.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:55 And it wasn't too many years ago where I would have never in a million years said no.
00:20:56 --> 00:21:01 And I said, no, I can't. I'm being really transparent. I can't.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 And it's more than I have the bandwidth for.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:08 And I hope you can understand that. Not even apologizing. I think I caught myself,
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10 you know, you write the text and then you're like, delete, delete, delete.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 And I said, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not even going to say I'm sorry for this.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:20 I'm going to say, I hope you understand. But that's how I feel. And they did.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 And that was fine and great and easy to resolve.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26 But the feeling that I had, because I still don't do it that often.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:32 It was such a liberating and freeing feeling to put what I needed for myself
00:21:32 --> 00:21:39 first and make sure that I wasn't sacrificing just for the benefit of what somebody
00:21:39 --> 00:21:41 else needed. And that's what we're talking about.
00:21:41 --> 00:21:47 We're talking about keeping everything happy and joyful when you're the one
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 who's having the hardest time.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:55 Yeah, I agree. Yeah. How do you feel about when you're going through a hard
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 time, I just had a question pop into my mind. Yeah.
00:21:57 --> 00:21:59 When you're going through this heavy thing and you're a parent,
00:22:00 --> 00:22:07 how do you address the holidays as a parent, feeling that pressure to make it
00:22:07 --> 00:22:08 magical for your children?
00:22:09 --> 00:22:14 Well, that's a good question. So, again, like you and I are kind of in different places with our kids.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:19 Your kids are like half my kids' ages. because we unfortunately don't really
00:22:19 --> 00:22:23 spend a lot of the holidays together anymore because one of my daughters lives abroad.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:28 I definitely have felt at times when I needed to celebrate Hanukkah.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 And of course, just by nature of the fact that it's Hanukkah,
00:22:31 --> 00:22:36 there's no big tree. We do different things and we have different traditions.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:45 And I always felt, I think, because I was the mom that I needed to really make
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47 it special, especially when they were younger.
00:22:48 --> 00:22:51 David and I have always had really, we've tried to have the same kind of open-minded
00:22:51 --> 00:22:56 attitude about what resonates with our kids and what doesn't.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 Like, that's their choice.
00:22:57 --> 00:23:01 When they were little, of course, they loved all the things that we did and
00:23:01 --> 00:23:02 the holidays and the traditions and everything.
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 And then as they got older, there were times when, you know,
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 sometimes one of us got sick on the holidays.
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 Sometimes I think there was a time or two that I had the flu on the holiday
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 and I couldn't show up and there's guilt and I sat them down and this isn't
00:23:15 --> 00:23:17 going to be the same as it's been in the past.
00:23:17 --> 00:23:21 And maybe we're going to have pajama Hanukkah instead because I can't bear the
00:23:21 --> 00:23:23 thought of getting dressed and getting in the shower.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:28 We've always been really honest with them. And I know this is kind of an all-over-the-place
00:23:28 --> 00:23:29 answer to your question.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:33 And we've had times where we've gone through stuff as a family,
00:23:33 --> 00:23:37 or one of my kids is going through something, or we've had a challenge that
00:23:37 --> 00:23:43 we've had to deal with, and people just weren't in a place to be celebrating
00:23:43 --> 00:23:44 the way that we have before.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:47 And we've owned it. We've been pretty,
00:23:47 --> 00:23:52 honest about it, all of us, and try to support each other as best we can.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:53 I guess it's just situational.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 It's like every year is different. And when you got a lot of different people
00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 involved, everybody might be going through something a little different and
00:23:59 --> 00:24:00 need something a little different.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 And I think we've always just tried to kind of honor what everybody else really
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 needed. And if it's cohesive and it matches, then that's great.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 And if somebody needs something different, we just go with it.
00:24:10 --> 00:24:14 Yeah, I would say, yeah, just definitely listen to what is going on within your
00:24:14 --> 00:24:19 side, your little core family, and honor that space and not feel the outside
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21 pressures of making it all this big magical thing.
00:24:22 --> 00:24:27 Because I know that's something I've really struggled with, is making it as magical as possible.
00:24:27 --> 00:24:30 But sometimes we didn't have the finances to do so, and it was,
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33 you know, a bit of a struggle.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:40 You do the best you can, and your kids aren't going to remember all the random toys or whatever.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:44 They're just going to remember the fact that you were there. Well, that's it.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 That's it. And that's why no matter what we did, whether we celebrated a holiday
00:24:47 --> 00:24:53 in our PJs or whether we did something bigger and more festive, it was all relative.
00:24:53 --> 00:25:00 It was something that they appreciated no matter what. And there's so much that
00:25:00 --> 00:25:06 you can do to make a festive time festive that doesn't involve spending money.
00:25:06 --> 00:25:10 It's presents versus gifts.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 You know what I mean? It's being like just what you said. It's showing up.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:18 It's family movie nights. It's going for the hike. It's cooking together.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:22 We used to always do all of those things. And to this day, that's what my kids remember.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:29 Those are the things. It's the time spent together and that focus and that love and that energy.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:35 So that's what we always leaned into, no matter where we were at for holidays.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 We have this compulsion to make it just right, especially like as a parent, as a mom.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:44 You and I are coming at this as moms. And so by default, we are the ones kind
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46 of orchestrating most stuff.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 Not that our husbands aren't involved, because I know mine is.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:53 I'm sure George is on your end. But a lot of it falls to us.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:55 So there's that pressure that's kind of hardwired in.
00:25:56 --> 00:26:02 But we're allowed to choose to be quiet or a little smaller with our plans and things.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06 I think if there's somebody dreading the holidays right now because you feel
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08 like you have to perform, don't.
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 Listen to all the things we just said. Listen to what your kids are really going
00:26:12 --> 00:26:16 to remember and kind of go with your guts. And you don't.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 Here's another thing that I really struggle with. When you've got young kids
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23 and you have that expectation that you have to go over to the in-laws or to
00:26:23 --> 00:26:28 your parents and things like that, your kids aren't going to remember that.
00:26:29 --> 00:26:34 No. It's not about them anymore. Their kids are grown and gone.
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38 And that time when your kids are so young and it's so magical,
00:26:38 --> 00:26:42 especially I would say between the ages of five and eight, it's such a magical time.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:48 And just really make an effort to just be present with them in those moments.
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 And honoring your space of your little core family.
00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 People forget that a lot. And they think it has to be this big,
00:26:57 --> 00:27:01 grand thing for the holidays because they have a big extended family.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:07 And, you know, I've gotten to the point that I just really value just the small,
00:27:07 --> 00:27:08 intimate where it's just us.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:13 That's exactly where we're at right now. We had Thanksgiving.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:20 It was just Dave and I were here, and our youngest daughter,
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 her boyfriend, was in New York with his family.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 Our oldest is in another country.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:31 So this was the smallest. I used to host between 20 and 25 people every year for 20 years.
00:27:31 --> 00:27:37 And then in-laws moved away, my parents moved away, Dave's family is scattered
00:27:37 --> 00:27:42 all over and the pandemic happened, which kind of changed the landscape of everything.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:47 And in a lot of ways, so many people talk about, obviously, the pain and suffering
00:27:47 --> 00:27:52 during that period of time for all of us, but there were also some good things
00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 that came out of it, which is the fact that we valued being together with the people that we love.
00:27:56 --> 00:28:01 And I really, when it became our core unit again, and it was like,
00:28:01 --> 00:28:07 you know, you had the iPad set up and our family was being Zoomed in from 27
00:28:07 --> 00:28:08 places around the country.
00:28:08 --> 00:28:12 We were having this chaotic Zoom Thanksgiving with a million people talking.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:16 Like, I really valued the fact that it was my little family of four at that
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 time. I never lost that feeling since then.
00:28:19 --> 00:28:22 So I, while I love to, of course, be with my bigger extended family on special
00:28:22 --> 00:28:28 occasions like that, there is for sure a part of me now that really has gotten
00:28:28 --> 00:28:32 back to a place of like, But can't we just have it be the four of us or the
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 three of us and have it be small?
00:28:34 --> 00:28:38 But you change and you evolve and your kids are different. And yeah,
00:28:38 --> 00:28:39 those magical years are amazing.
00:28:39 --> 00:28:43 And it's easy to make them fun because the kids are just joyful about everything.
00:28:44 --> 00:28:48 But it changes. It evolves. It's different. And they want different things.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:53 And then they move out and they have their Friendsgivings and their holiday parties.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:58 And it changes again and again and again. And so I guess if you just stay nimble
00:28:58 --> 00:29:02 and you remember to kind of stay focused on what it is that you need,
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04 then, you know, if everybody does
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 that for themselves, then most people hopefully will get what they want.
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So...
00:29:11 --> 00:29:14 If you're listening to this conversation right now and you're feeling the weight
00:29:14 --> 00:29:17 of a lot of what we've talked about, which is you're feeling expectations,
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 you're feeling pressure, you feel like you're going to have to fake it, you are not alone.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:26 Natasha and I have just been pouring our guts out for the last 30 minutes about
00:29:26 --> 00:29:31 how we have absolutely been there, have suffered through the functions and events
00:29:31 --> 00:29:35 and holidays that we didn't want to attend and what that does to you.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 And so that's the point of having conversations where you can see yourself in
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 somebody else and say, wow, I was feeling that way. How did you handle it? What did you do?
00:29:43 --> 00:29:49 Well, Natasha and I have learned to not do things for other people before you do it for yourself.
00:29:49 --> 00:29:53 So that's the whole point of this conversation as it relates to the holidays.
00:29:53 --> 00:29:58 So you don't have to fix yourself for the benefit of other people.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:07 You don't have to perform for other people just to make them love you and appreciate you.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:14 You don't have to show up anywhere where it's going to cost you your own heart space and head space.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:21 And we're here to support that. We're here to support you in that and remind you of that. So-
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 If you're part of this community that Natasha and I are part of,
00:30:25 --> 00:30:29 the survivor community in particular, who are kind of quietly trying to just
00:30:29 --> 00:30:35 make it through December and January with your heart being intact at the end
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 of it, just meet yourself where you are, okay?
00:30:38 --> 00:30:41 Just honor what you need. That is the bottom line to all of this.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:50 So next week, we have a big teaser coming up, and we're going to be heading
00:30:50 --> 00:30:55 into a little bit of a deeper conversation than we've talked about with Life in the FLDS,
00:30:55 --> 00:30:59 which is what you've talked a lot about these last handful of episodes.
00:31:00 --> 00:31:05 But we're going to be teasing up the fact that someone is going to join us on
00:31:05 --> 00:31:07 the podcast, because you and I are going to start to do things a little different
00:31:07 --> 00:31:10 and have some people join us from time to time.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:16 And you're going to give us not only a glimpse into an even deeper side of what
00:31:16 --> 00:31:22 life was like to grow up inside a cult like the FLDS, but we're going to welcome
00:31:22 --> 00:31:26 your brother, Ward, onto the podcast.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:33 We're going to have a three-part conversation and have a deep dive into what
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 your life as kids in that environment was like.
00:31:37 --> 00:31:41 So rest up because we we
00:31:41 --> 00:31:46 got a lot coming ahead there's a lot coming ahead until then take care of yourself
00:31:46 --> 00:31:53 be mindful of what you need say no if you need to and keep surviving and we'll
00:31:53 --> 00:31:58 be here when you come back honor your body honor your body for sure and your
00:31:58 --> 00:32:00 heart and we'll see you right back here next week.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 Okay, I'm blowing you kisses. Not just you, but them too. Yes.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:12 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:32:12 --> 00:32:17 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:22 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:30 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:32:30 --> 00:32:31 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:37 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:39 And if you or someone you know is struggling please
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 remember help is always out there you can call or
00:32:42 --> 00:32:46 text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor
00:32:46 --> 00:32:49 like me and for more mental health resources tools
00:32:49 --> 00:32:54 treatment options and content to support your mental health visit the helphub.co
00:32:54 --> 00:32:58 we're so grateful you're part of the survivors family and we'll be back next
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things until
00:33:02 --> 00:33:06 then take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.