*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this episode Lisa & Natasha talk about how grief permanently rewires who we are — how loss changes identity, priorities, and relationships. The hosts share personal stories of multiple suicide losses, how friendships shifted, and what it feels like to carry grief day to day.
They offer practical ways to show up for someone who is grieving (just show up, bring meals, mention the person who died) and discuss coping strategies like compartmentalizing, scheduled grieving, and learning to live alongside the pain. For immediate support, listeners are reminded that the 988 Crisis & Suicide Helpline and The HelpHUB™ are available.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Takeaways
- Grief is a permanent rewiring of our emotional landscape.
- Loss can change our relationships and reveal true friends.
- Time does not heal all wounds; it changes our relationship with grief.
- Grief can feel isolating, especially when others don't know how to respond.
- Childhood grief often goes unacknowledged, leading to feelings of isolation.
- Living alongside grief means accepting it as a part of life.
- Education on grief can help others support those who are grieving.
- It's important to talk about lost loved ones to keep their memory alive.
- Grief can be an invisible companion that we learn to coexist with.
- Surviving grief is about holding both the pain of loss and the joy of life.
Chapters
00:00 The Transformative Power of Grief 02:56 Navigating Relationships Through Loss 06:02 The Ebb and Flow of Grief 08:59 The Impact of Time on Grief 12:00 Who Shows Up in Times of Grief? 14:58 The Isolation of Grief 17:52 Childhood Grief and Isolation 22:00 Living Alongside Grief 25:00 Educating Others on Grief 28:10 The Ongoing Nature of GriefMental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
Follow & Connect With Us
📷 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_survivors_podcast
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-survivors-podcast
🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheSurvivorsPodcastChannel
🎵📱TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thesurvivorspodcast
See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey, friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up,
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:26 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together. Yeah.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:34 So anybody who listens to the pod regularly knows that we talk about grief a lot,
00:00:35 --> 00:00:42 lots of different kinds of grief, and about how hard it is to navigate the pain
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 of loss and all those profound feelings of sadness and emptiness that we all
00:00:47 --> 00:00:49 feel when we lose somebody that we love.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:54 But grief doesn't just take somebody from us.
00:00:54 --> 00:01:00 I've been thinking a lot about this lately. It changes us. It completely rewires
00:01:00 --> 00:01:04 us. And it doesn't do it temporarily because grief is ongoing,
00:01:05 --> 00:01:06 right? It doesn't ever really end.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:13 So it's a permanent rewiring. So I thought today we could talk about what it
00:01:13 --> 00:01:21 really means to survive that kind of change from grief when it really changes you at your core.
00:01:21 --> 00:01:26 Like, I know I've been through that kind of change. I know you've been through that kind of change.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:30 Do you feel like when you look back, and I'm just going to very quickly for
00:01:30 --> 00:01:33 context for anyone who may be just listening for the first time.
00:01:33 --> 00:01:38 Share that I've lost three people I love to suicide along with now I've lost
00:01:38 --> 00:01:43 count of how many other family members and friends that I've just lost over the years.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:47 And you have lost five brothers to suicide.
00:01:47 --> 00:01:53 You've lost your father and have been through an enormous amount of so many
00:01:53 --> 00:01:54 different types of trauma.
00:01:54 --> 00:02:03 But do you feel like there's a clear version of you before all your losses, and then after.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:13 Yes, I do. You know, the version of me that existed prior to 2022 was somebody,
00:02:13 --> 00:02:18 you know, that was, I begged for a lot.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:25 I tolerated a lot of bullshit and just allowed people to give me scraps of their time, their attention.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:30 And the version of me that exists now is a version that doesn't,
00:02:31 --> 00:02:37 I don't, if you cannot show up for me in my darkest times and be there and allow
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 yourself to be uncomfortable with me.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:43 So a lot of my friendships did not survive the last three years.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:47 Three, four years. That's typical.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:52 I hate to say it, but it's pretty typical. And your friendships that I had had
00:02:52 --> 00:02:57 for decades that had even said to me, you're different now. And I'm like, well, no shit. Yeah.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:03 Like, what does somebody expect? You bury four family members in the course
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 of five months and tell me that you don't come out different on the other side.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:11 Yeah. Well, I think a lot of that, too, a lot of people's distance is just straight
00:03:11 --> 00:03:16 up inability to know what to do, what to say, how to navigate it is so uncomfortable.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:18 Like, loss itself is so uncomfortable for people.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:23 People don't know how to act and
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26 i think that a lot of people stay away because they
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 either are afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing or they just don't
00:03:29 --> 00:03:36 know how to engage at all and so it's not a it's not a big surprise that friendships
00:03:36 --> 00:03:41 just fall away because people don't feel like they can be there and then the
00:03:41 --> 00:03:46 people who need their friends there resent the fact that their friends weren't there.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:50 Yeah, that's hard. That's really hard.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:59 How did the world feel differently to you after you lost your dad and your brothers?
00:04:00 --> 00:04:05 Not just emotionally, but the way you experienced, like, everything, I guess, in your life.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:12 I realized how fragile life was. And that, okay, so it's really weird.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:16 But as you approach 40, you know, I was approaching 40 and I was starting to
00:04:16 --> 00:04:19 see the wrinkles start to show up.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:22 And everybody knows that grief will age you like a mofo.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:29 And so at first I was, you know, taking a bit of a book in the vanity,
00:04:29 --> 00:04:33 not wanting the wrinkles to show up and doing all this skin care, trying to slow it down.
00:04:33 --> 00:04:40 And then I thought, okay, I've lost at the time four brothers to suicide,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 three of which were 28 when they died.
00:04:43 --> 00:04:47 And I thought every wrinkle that I have, especially on my face now,
00:04:47 --> 00:04:51 is just one more year that I get to live that they didn't.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:55 And so I look at age as a,
00:04:56 --> 00:05:02 I'm grateful for it because I now get to honor them in their memory and live
00:05:02 --> 00:05:08 longer and try to live a life that they would be proud of. What about for you?
00:05:09 --> 00:05:15 Yeah, I mean, it definitely shifts just your whole overall perspective on life
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 and priorities and what's worth your time and attention.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:24 I know for me, I mean, for people who may not know my story,
00:05:24 --> 00:05:28 you know, I've lost three people that I love, I've said that,
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 but I've lost one of them twice.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 I've lost my dad when I was 10.
00:05:33 --> 00:05:36 We thought he died of a heart attack. I was told he died of a heart attack,
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 but he actually had taken his life. I didn't find that out for 35 years.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:44 And that blew me to bits. That blew me to pieces.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:50 And for me, at that time, it wasn't even an issue of people not showing up.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:53 For me, I didn't tell anyone.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:59 I went years without actually sharing it with anyone, even my own children,
00:05:59 --> 00:06:03 until I felt like I was just, I guess, back on solid ground in a way.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 But it changed everything for me. That grief,
00:06:07 --> 00:06:16 in my case, that suicide loss on top of losing my dad at all,
00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 just changed the way I saw him.
00:06:19 --> 00:06:25 It changed the way all of my memories existed in my mind. Was he really happy? Was he not happy?
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 Was he really present in those moments?
00:06:28 --> 00:06:32 Was he planning something in those moments? I mean, there are so many ways that
00:06:32 --> 00:06:36 it changed me, and it definitely made me.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:44 Prioritize the important people in my life and being intentional and present
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 in my life in different ways for sure.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:52 And, and it has, it just rewired that completely, you know, I mean,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 everything shifts, you know, everything shifts.
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 That's all, that's all I can say.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:06 And, and it It doesn't necessarily incapacitate you forever.
00:07:06 --> 00:07:10 It didn't incapacitate me forever. It did for a time.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 But it ebbs and flows, and we talk a lot about that.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:19 That grief and the way we navigate the world with it just has to ebb and flow.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:23 It's the only way through it is to just kind of ride it, I guess.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:29 Yeah. It's like where the initial loss feels like you're carrying around a bowling ball.
00:07:30 --> 00:07:34 And then as you get stronger, yeah, in some cases, 10, absolutely.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 You're like Atlas with the world on your shoulders with the weight of it all.
00:07:40 --> 00:07:45 And it's not that that grief gets smaller, you just get stronger,
00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 where initially it feels like this big, huge thing.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:56 And then eventually it becomes, you know, for some, a little tiny pebble that's always in your shoe.
00:07:56 --> 00:08:01 You feel it, but it's like, it's kind of a nuisance, and you feel it,
00:08:01 --> 00:08:05 it's there, or something happens, and then all of a sudden it's a bowling ball again.
00:08:06 --> 00:08:11 You know what I mean? I feel like there's always a constant awareness of it.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 No matter what, there's always a constant awareness. And there's,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:15 you know, the expression that
00:08:15 --> 00:08:18 keeps popping into my head is the whole time heals all wounds situation.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:23 Expression. It does not. No, it absolutely does not.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:31 What has time, I know what it's done for me, but what has time done or not done for your own grief?
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 For me, time hasn't done anything.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 The losses have stacked up too high. There's too many now.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:44 I have to block it.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:49 In order to function on a day-to-day basis, I have to compartmentalize.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 I have to block it, not think about it.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:56 And then if something triggers a memory, or I remember something,
00:08:57 --> 00:09:03 a song, or whatever it is, or if I just genuinely feel like I need to just recognize
00:09:03 --> 00:09:07 the loss of it all, I will allow myself to sit into that space.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:10 I will intentionally put on a certain song that will remind me,
00:09:10 --> 00:09:14 And I will kind of force myself to have a grieving session.
00:09:15 --> 00:09:20 Because if I walk around with the constant awareness that a quarter of my family
00:09:20 --> 00:09:26 is dead, I just, I can't get through the day. Yeah, well, and what we're talking
00:09:26 --> 00:09:29 about in your personal case is so unusual.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 I don't personally know anyone. And I'm in this space. I mean,
00:09:33 --> 00:09:40 I'm in this space as an advocate and a crisis counselor and as someone who is
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 part of a lot of these bigger mental health platforms in one way or another.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:48 And I don't know anybody who has a story like your story. So it's no wonder
00:09:48 --> 00:09:54 that you have to compartmentalize it because I don't know how you navigate through that kind of loss.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:59 I mean, would you agree? So I'm thinking of like the same answer to that question,
00:09:59 --> 00:10:03 but my own answer about what time has done.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:11 Yeah, I was just going to ask you about that. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely softened things for me.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:13 It like softens the edges. Yeah.
00:10:14 --> 00:10:20 A little bit, the painful edges. Now, granted, they can still poke me and prick
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 when I least expect it. And like you said, flare up.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27 And now we're talking grief attacks that can happen anywhere,
00:10:27 --> 00:10:30 anytime after decades and decades.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:38 But I do feel like there's a general softening to all of it where I can move
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 about my day and live my life.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:45 And it's like that awareness, that pebble, or that feeling that is just always
00:10:45 --> 00:10:50 there with you, that's always there. So I think it just kind of changes shape.
00:10:51 --> 00:10:56 You know, it gets sometimes it's a little duller and easier to walk through or walk with.
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 I feel like I'm always walking with it is really the thing.
00:11:00 --> 00:11:05 And that time just, I guess, makes me a little more used to it.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:11 So I'm just so used to being accompanied by grief. I mean, you and I have had
00:11:11 --> 00:11:12 very different experiences.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:16 We obviously have both lost people we love to suicide and other ways.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:22 But you've had a ton of really traumatic loss in a much shorter period of time.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:28 I started experiencing death when I was nine years old with a family member
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 who took his life. My cousin took his life.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 And then my father died a year later. And then we had a ton of extended family
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 members pass away in a very, very short period of time.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:45 And I guess it kind of sits with you, like, in your back pocket, is the way I feel.
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 And, you know, every once in a while, it just kind of taps you on the shoulder.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:57 But we talked about how grief reveals people to us.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 For a second, we talked about that. Can we talk a little bit more about that? Yeah.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:07 I, you know, I know who didn't show up for me.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 Do you know? I mean, you can probably rattle off a list in your head of who didn't show up for you.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 What was that like? Like, here's what I've always told my kids,
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 and this does not just apply to grief.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:24 It applies to people showing up in your life for all of the important reasons
00:12:24 --> 00:12:26 that a person, a friend, would show up for you.
00:12:26 --> 00:12:33 I've told my kids forever that in life, people are going to surprise you in the strangest ways.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:38 The people who you absolutely, without a doubt, would bet anything on that would
00:12:38 --> 00:12:43 be there for you when you needed them are nowhere to be found. It's like crickets.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:49 And then it's the people you never expected would ever either show up or pay
00:12:49 --> 00:12:55 attention or support you are all of a sudden right there front and center to support you.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:02 I mean, and I definitely know that I've experienced that with a lot of grief.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:08 Like, what was it like for you when the people who you thought would be there did not show up?
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 But what like was it was like that it was was it several ties? I'm pulling away.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 I'm done. Was it gradual or is it just kind of like a knowing like,
00:13:17 --> 00:13:18 OK, I can't count on that person.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of the Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 If you're listening right now and you're not okay,
00:13:26 --> 00:13:30 If you're feeling overwhelmed, stuck, or like you're carrying more than you
00:13:30 --> 00:13:33 can handle, please know you don't have to go through it alone.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:40 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:13:40 --> 00:13:44 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 Reaching out is a brave first step, and you owe it to yourself.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:55 Because your life matters, your story matters, and help is always just three numbers away.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 It felt like a betrayal to be
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 perfectly honest and because i lost so
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 many people in such a quick time time frame four
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 people in five months the first time you know
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 i was like okay i'll give them the benefit of the doubt you know with
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 the first one and the second one and then after the
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 fourth one rolled around everybody was just so
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 uncomfortable with that amount of loss and i
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 know that a lot lot of people did say we just didn't know what to
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 say or didn't know what to do I got
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29 a lot of let me know if you need something which is
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 the worst thing that you can say some but to somebody that
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 is grieving because it puts the responsibility back on
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 the the grieved person and who in
00:14:38 --> 00:14:42 their right mind which we're not when we're grieving has
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 the capacity to say hey I need this half the time
00:14:44 --> 00:14:48 we don't even know what to eat or to do and
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51 so i you know for those that just
00:14:51 --> 00:14:55 showed up over and over and over i have mentioned my
00:14:55 --> 00:15:00 aunt before she's actually not even technically my aunt she's my mom's cousin
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 so she's technically my second cousin i always refer to her as my aunt but i'm
00:15:04 --> 00:15:08 gonna go ahead and say her name aunt jill and i love her and adore her because
00:15:08 --> 00:15:13 she called me every single day for three or four months on her lunch break.
00:15:14 --> 00:15:19 Whether I answered the phone or not, she called me every single day.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:26 And that made the biggest difference for me. And she is the only person that
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 showed up for me like that.
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 We'd had, you know, we'd go years without talking.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:38 But we always had a very deep relationship. But I never in a million years thought
00:15:38 --> 00:15:41 that she would be the one to show up for me every single day.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:47 It just proves that the people that you are absolutely certain will be there
00:15:47 --> 00:15:50 are more often than not, not the ones who show up.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:56 It is the people that you just, you never saw them coming. And they're there.
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 And, you know, I mean, I have a
00:15:59 --> 00:16:04 lot of gratitude for those people who have shown up for me in those ways.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:10 And yeah, I definitely harbor some, I don't like to harbor anything,
00:16:10 --> 00:16:16 but I definitely harbor some feelings of sadness that there were people who
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20 I was like, how are they not, how are they not here for this?
00:16:20 --> 00:16:21 How are they not reaching out?
00:16:21 --> 00:16:26 How are they not checking in in the same ways that either they know I would
00:16:26 --> 00:16:30 if it were the opposite situation or they know I have because I have?
00:16:31 --> 00:16:35 And it's heartbreaking. It's always hard when people don't show up for you the
00:16:35 --> 00:16:41 way that you hope. But, you know, that is one of the fundamental ways that grief changes us.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 It doesn't just change us internally, which obviously it does,
00:16:45 --> 00:16:52 but it also changes the dynamic of our relationships in a lot of cases.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:57 And, you know, with either people who don't know how to handle it or don't want to handle it.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:01 And that's a sad reality, but it is a reality.
00:17:03 --> 00:17:07 And it's really sad, honestly, that you would think that somebody that you had
00:17:07 --> 00:17:12 been very dear friends with for decades would show up or even,
00:17:12 --> 00:17:14 you know, a family member.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 I know that for a lot of us, you know, initially in the initial stages of grief,
00:17:19 --> 00:17:23 we would gather together at a sibling's house and we'd have dinners a lot or
00:17:23 --> 00:17:27 just be around each other in those initial couple first weeks.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:32 But then we would all retreat back into our shells trying to survive.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:38 Trying to get through with it. And so even, you know, my own siblings didn't
00:17:38 --> 00:17:42 show up for me in the same ways that I showed up for them.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:47 And it's really quite sad. And I looked at it,
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 you know, I evaluated a lot of friendships, a lot of, you know,
00:17:50 --> 00:17:58 with family and friends alike, and thought, if they didn't show up for me in
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02 the way that I needed them to, what's the point of having them around?
00:18:02 --> 00:18:05 If they couldn't show up for me in my darkest time, and they're only there when
00:18:05 --> 00:18:10 I'm at, you know, my big, bubbly personality, then they don't get to have me in their life.
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 And that's really quite sad.
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 My biggest question for you, sorry, total shift here.
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 No, I'm here for it. When you were 10 years old and you lost your dad,
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 what did that look like for you?
00:18:24 --> 00:18:28 You know, how is a child supposed to know how to show up for their friend?
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 And so what was that like for you as a child going through that?
00:18:33 --> 00:18:37 You know, I really appreciate you asking that question because it's a question
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 in all the conversations I've had about this loss.
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 It's a question that really doesn't come up very often, if ever.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:50 I think it's only a question that my therapist has asked me recently, but no one else. So,
00:18:51 --> 00:18:55 Keep in mind, I was 10 years old, losing my dad, and it was 1978.
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 So people were not talking about suicide. People were not talking about mental illness.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:04 People were not talking about death in general at all.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:10 I didn't know anybody who had ever lost a parent or lost a family member.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:17 And I was in the fifth grade. It was the summer before I went into fifth grade.
00:19:18 --> 00:19:27 And I remember so vividly feeling so unbelievably isolated and alone because
00:19:27 --> 00:19:31 not only was I in this club all by myself,
00:19:31 --> 00:19:34 there was nobody else in this club. It was just me.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:40 Nobody knew what to say to me. What 10-year-old kid in 1978 knew what the hell
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 to say to the little girl who lost her dad?
00:19:44 --> 00:19:48 As a result, nobody talked about my dad. Nobody asked me about my dad.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:54 Nobody wanted to hear stories. And all I wanted to do was what I've done for the last 47 years,
00:19:54 --> 00:19:58 which is to keep my father alive in my life and with my children and with my
00:19:58 --> 00:20:03 husband who never met him by sharing the stories and including him in the conversation.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 I continue to build a relationship with my father.
00:20:06 --> 00:20:12 Every day, all these years, it continues. You can absolutely continue to build that relationship.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:18 But at that time, when I was 10 years old, I felt like he was completely erased
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 from everyone's memory. He didn't exist anymore.
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 He wasn't someone anybody wanted to talk to, even the adults,
00:20:25 --> 00:20:30 like even the adults in my life, even my teachers didn't know what to say, didn't know what to do.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32 Nobody was sending in a therapist to talk to me.
00:20:33 --> 00:20:38 Nobody was sending in a counselor. I remember the only person who ever said
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 to me, the only adult who ever said to me,
00:20:40 --> 00:20:46 person at all, because kids weren't saying anything to me, who asked me how I was, was our rabbi.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:51 I have this vivid memory of our rabbi coming over in the days after my father died.
00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 And I was a very big tomboy, still am.
00:20:56 --> 00:21:03 And I remember this, I have this vivid memory of him going outside with me to play catch.
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 I think I was like already outside playing with a ball, throwing the ball around.
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 And he came outside to throw a ball around with me. And he asked me,
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 how are you? How are you doing?
00:21:13 --> 00:21:18 That was the one and only time as a child anyone ever asked me how I was doing.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:19 And it's interesting because.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:24 In therapy, this came up within the last year, and I've talked about this on
00:21:24 --> 00:21:31 the podcast, that my therapist said to me, how did you navigate all the grief?
00:21:31 --> 00:21:35 Like, who was checking in on you? Because I remember, anyone who's listened
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 to the podcast knows how close I am with my mother.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39 We just had my mother on the last two episodes.
00:21:40 --> 00:21:44 She is my person in this world. She did everything in her power to protect me.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48 She supported me. We absolutely went through this all together.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51 And of course we cried and we were emotional together, but we weren't,
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 you didn't talk about it.
00:21:53 --> 00:21:57 You didn't talk about how are you feeling? What do you need?
00:21:58 --> 00:22:00 What are you missing? What do you need to express?
00:22:00 --> 00:22:04 There wasn't any of that. It all just, I don't even know where it went.
00:22:05 --> 00:22:13 It just went to some bunker that was underground and I just kept filling it
00:22:13 --> 00:22:17 up and closing the door. It just didn't exist in my mainstream life.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:22 And it was really, really hard because I felt extremely alone in my grief.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:24 And I didn't have siblings.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:30 I didn't have anyone in my life, an older person, adult, teacher,
00:22:31 --> 00:22:38 counselor, teaching me what I should be talking about or explaining to me that
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 I was going to feel really angry and that I was going to feel really sad and
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43 that I was going to feel really scared.
00:22:43 --> 00:22:48 And that I, all the things that came up, I didn't have anybody to walk me through
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 that. And it was very isolating.
00:22:51 --> 00:22:56 I'll bet. Yeah. And probably really, really scary for you to navigate all those
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57 big emotions by yourself.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:02 It was terrifying. And I'll tell you the thing, and I know I talked about this
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 in the last two episodes with my mom.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:09 So it was two weeks after my 10th birthday that my father passed away.
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 For at least three months, maybe it was six months after that,
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 I had to sleep in my mother's bed.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 I was terrified. that I was going to lose my mother.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:26 You lose a parent when you're 10 years old.
00:23:26 --> 00:23:30 Parents are not supposed to go anywhere. They're supposed to be there.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 I didn't even know anybody who was divorced at that time.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 I just knew fully intact families.
00:23:36 --> 00:23:42 And mine was not anymore. And all of a sudden, I had half the number of parents
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 that I had the day before. I was terrified. And I still live with that.
00:23:46 --> 00:23:49 I still live, you know, rational or irrational, I still live with that fear.
00:23:49 --> 00:23:57 And it haunts me because I've always been afraid of losing her because I knew
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 that she was the only one left. She was the only parent left to lose.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:06 So it's been really hard. I mean, you know, at some point, I feel like surviving
00:24:06 --> 00:24:14 grief, like you and I do or anyone does, it becomes about learning just how to live alongside it.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:19 And, you know, and that's what I do. I mean, what does that even look like for you right now?
00:24:20 --> 00:24:25 Well, it's kind of like this person that's just there following me around all
00:24:25 --> 00:24:26 the time. Yeah, I get that.
00:24:27 --> 00:24:34 So abundantly aware of it, you know, and it's really rewired how I see everything.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:42 I really try to focus on the small moments with the kids and just be grateful
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 for what I do have with my kids.
00:24:45 --> 00:24:49 And, you know, the big things that matter or were a big deal before,
00:24:50 --> 00:24:52 you know, they just don't matter anymore.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 Yeah. It's just like all the big things, it's like, really, does that matter?
00:24:56 --> 00:25:00 It's a total shift in perspective, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:07 And it's just learning to coexist with this invisible friend that's always there.
00:25:07 --> 00:25:13 And I say friend because if I am, you know, I can't look at grief as an enemy
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 because if I do, then I'm going to hate it.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:21 And so, you know, I guess that's part of the acceptance. And if I become friends
00:25:21 --> 00:25:25 with my grief and I say, hey, pull up a chair, let's talk about it.
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 And so a lot of my grief I've had to do alone.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:38 And that's okay. But I feel like if we could have more education and just open
00:25:38 --> 00:25:44 topics, conversations about, you know, how do we show up for somebody that doesn't have any experience?
00:25:44 --> 00:25:48 And I realized that a lot of people that didn't show up for me were,
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 in my grief, were people that didn't have any experience with it.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:56 Looking for mental health resources that actually fit who you are and where you come from?
00:25:57 --> 00:26:01 Then you need to check out the Help Hub. It's not another generic wellness site.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:07 It's a free, inclusive, online platform built for real people living real lives.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:14 People managing stress, anxiety, depression, trauma and abuse, grief or suicide loss.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:18 At the Help Hub, you'll find the resources, tools, treatment options,
00:26:18 --> 00:26:22 and trauma-informed content you need in the moment without having to dig through
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 endless tabs or start from scratch.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:31 It's your place to land, to take a breath, and to find exactly what you need when you need it most.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:35 Visit thehelphub.co where the help you need is just a click away.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:47 Or very, very limited experience. And so I think if people really care or want
00:26:47 --> 00:26:52 to show up for people that they love that are grieving, do some education on it.
00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 Find a way to show up or just do the little dumb things that don't matter.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:01 Have groceries delivered. Have a meal dropped off.
00:27:02 --> 00:27:09 And again, I'll say this with some gumption. Do not say, let me know if. Yeah.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:15 You know what I mean? Or how can I help you? Look, I do that sometimes too by
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 default. Right. I'm not going to say I don't. It is a default. Yeah.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 You know, and I know I shouldn't. And I know I wouldn't want someone to say
00:27:21 --> 00:27:24 that to me because you're not in the right mind to be like, I need this or I need that.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:28 You're just you're barely getting through the day. But I know what you mean.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:32 It's just hard to resist that instinct because you just want to let the person
00:27:32 --> 00:27:34 know, I mean, I'm there and there and there. But.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:39 Sometimes the easiest way to do that is to just like, just show up.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:49 Just show up there and just bring the coffee and say, if you feel like talking, here I am.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 Or if you don't feel like talking, here I am. yep or
00:27:52 --> 00:27:55 just pick up and you know
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 because nine times out of ten a bereaved person is their house
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 may not be clean or show up with the
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03 groceries just show up or if you don't want
00:28:03 --> 00:28:08 to do that just sit next to the person it's going to be uncomfortable as hell
00:28:08 --> 00:28:15 or you know just find ways to make that person feel less alone and you know
00:28:15 --> 00:28:20 tell me your favorite memory about so-and-so mention their name because that
00:28:20 --> 00:28:21 person didn't cease to exist.
00:28:22 --> 00:28:28 So, you know, in showing up for somebody that you love is learning to be uncomfortable
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 in that grief because it is incredibly uncomfortable.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:36 It is. And one of the most important things, and you just touched on it,
00:28:36 --> 00:28:41 I think, is that because it rewires us, and this goes back to the beginning
00:28:41 --> 00:28:44 of the conversation where we said, you know, grief changes you,
00:28:44 --> 00:28:48 fundamentally rewires you and changes you as a human being and the way that
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 you operate and the way that you see the world,
00:28:50 --> 00:28:57 it's really a powerful thing when you ask someone about the person that they
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59 lost. Talk about the person.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:02 They're going to tell you, I either do or don't want to talk about it.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06 The person will have the capacity to say, yes, I do or no, I don't.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:10 But the point is, bring up the person.
00:29:10 --> 00:29:15 It can be so isolating when you feel like that person doesn't exist anymore
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 and their memory doesn't exist anymore, and you feel like that light is fading,
00:29:18 --> 00:29:23 and you don't want it to fade, and you just want to insert them into your life and keep them there.
00:29:24 --> 00:29:31 That's such a powerful thing that any of us can do when someone is grieving, is just to,
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35 tell me about your person. Talk about them. Share about them.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:40 I had heard something recently about, you know, where people expect after a
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 year that you should be over it.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 And it's like somebody, this person that I was watching. Who's saying that?
00:29:46 --> 00:29:50 Well, that seems to be the general consensus from what I gather.
00:29:50 --> 00:29:55 And the person that I heard this from was like, well, how long is that person going to be dead for?
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 Forever. Yep. So this person's going to be grieving forever.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:01 That's right. It doesn't stop.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:09 Right. So just because, you know, it's been a year or two or you can still talk about that person.
00:30:09 --> 00:30:13 And it's like people are afraid to mention it because we're aware they're dead.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:14 We're forever aware they're dead.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:19 You know, or just a, hey, you know what I was thinking about so-and-so the other day.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:25 And they just had the most wonderful whatever or just bring up a fond memory.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:32 It's okay to bring it up. And, you know, and you just are forever reminded of,
00:30:33 --> 00:30:38 through all of this, that we're going to carry this for the rest of our lives.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 And if you really want to show up and be there for somebody,
00:30:42 --> 00:30:46 allow them to know it's okay to miss them and to be there and support.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 Because... Years or even decades later. Right, right. Absolutely.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:56 I mean, at the end of the day, we...
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 We wouldn't want to stop grieving. I wouldn't want to stop grieving.
00:30:59 --> 00:31:06 It's the worst, most painful feeling that I've ever known is to grieve someone
00:31:06 --> 00:31:08 I love who isn't here anymore.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:13 But I would never want to stop grieving for that person, especially I think
00:31:13 --> 00:31:18 about people like obviously different people are in our lives in different capacities
00:31:18 --> 00:31:21 and losing a parent versus maybe losing a friend or losing a co-worker.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:22 They're all very different.
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26 But in my case, I'm just talking now about my dad.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:32 I would never want to stop grieving my dad, because when I am in the midst of
00:31:32 --> 00:31:34 the worst bits of that grief...
00:31:36 --> 00:31:41 In that moment where I may be sobbing and I may be inconsolable in my own heart
00:31:41 --> 00:31:45 because I just miss him so much, which still happens all the time after all
00:31:45 --> 00:31:48 this time, those are the moments where I feel the closest to him.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:56 I feel him so, so acutely when I'm in that state of mind.
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 And as painful as it is, I wouldn't trade it for anything because it keeps me
00:32:00 --> 00:32:07 connected to him or my grandmothers or my aunts and uncles or friends who I've
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09 lost. I could say the same about any of them.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:13 And grief doesn't go away. It doesn't shrink.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:18 I don't really even think it shrinks or disappear. We just learn how to carry it better. That's all.
00:32:19 --> 00:32:22 We just get stronger in our ability to carry it.
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25 And surviving, which is what we're all doing after we're grieving,
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 isn't about getting back to who we were before the loss because we're not.
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32 We already said that. We're not the same person.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:37 We will never be the same person without that person in our life anymore.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:46 It's just about becoming somebody who can hold kind of both the pain and grief
00:32:46 --> 00:32:52 of the loss and the life that's still, and the memory that still exists around it.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:54 And I feel like that's what we're all just trying to do. Mm-hmm.
00:32:55 --> 00:33:00 I wholeheartedly agree. It's a beautiful, beautiful way to end this conversation,
00:33:00 --> 00:33:02 I feel. Mm-hmm. No, I agree.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:07 We'll come back we'll come back next week and we're going to have another,
00:33:08 --> 00:33:11 another deep conversation I'm not even going to give it away I'm just going
00:33:11 --> 00:33:13 to say you're going to have to come back next week to figure out what it is
00:33:13 --> 00:33:17 we're talking about but in the meantime keep surviving and we'll see you next
00:33:17 --> 00:33:19 Wednesday have a good one.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:24 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the survivors community no
00:33:24 --> 00:33:28 matter where you are in your story you're not alone and you're definitely not
00:33:28 --> 00:33:32 broken healing takes time and it looks different for everyone.
00:33:32 --> 00:33:37 The fact that you're still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:33:37 --> 00:33:41 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:33:43 --> 00:33:48 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:33:52 --> 00:33:53 help is always out there.
00:33:53 --> 00:33:58 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:34:01 --> 00:34:05 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:34:05 --> 00:34:09 We're so grateful you're part of the survivors family and we'll be back next
00:34:09 --> 00:34:13 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things until
00:34:13 --> 00:34:18 then take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving you.