In this raw and emotional episode, Lisa and Gretchen unpack the deep and often misunderstood feeling of guilt that follows suicide loss and suicide attempts. Through vulnerable storytelling and insight, they show how guilt can be reframed into grace, healing, and renewed strength.
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📝 Episode Summary:
Lisa and Gretchen dive into one of the most unspoken emotional burdens after suicide loss and survival—guilt. They offer two different yet equally powerful perspectives: Lisa as someone who lost loved ones to suicide and Gretchen as a suicide attempt survivor. Together, they explore the complexity of this emotion, share personal stories, and offer practical, compassionate tools for reframing guilt into healing.
💡 Lessons Learned:
- Guilt after suicide loss or attempt is common, but not always justified.
- Naming your guilt and processing it out loud or through writing can release its grip.
- Support systems, therapy, and peer connection are key to healing.
- Survivor stories help others feel seen, heard, and less alone.
- Grace and self-forgiveness are essential parts of recovery.
⏱️ Episode Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction & Trigger Warning
01:14 – Understanding the Weight of Guilt
03:00 – Gretchen’s Story: The Attempt, Silence, and Shame
06:29 – Reframing Weakness as Strength
08:45 – The Impact of Guilt on Loved Ones
13:37 – Lisa’s Experience as a Survivor of Suicide Loss
18:36 – What It Feels Like in a Moment of Crisis
20:00 – Writing Letters to Heal
22:11 – “Fact-Check” Your Guilt
23:14 – Journaling as Therapy
24:56 – The Power of Talking to Other Survivors
26:32 – The Lifesaving Role of Therapy
28:44 – Final Reflections: You Are Not Alone
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The Survivors is brought to you by our friends at the Help Hub. This
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podcast mentions suicide, mental illness, grief and loss and may be
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triggering for some listeners. So please take care of your mental well being
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by pausing or skipping any sections that feel uncomfortable to you. And if
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you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for support.
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See, when you pick up your mug like that, right before we start recording now
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I have to pick up my two of a Kind survivor
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mug to make sure that I'm doing what you're doing. Listen,
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I had to clean mine, but now that it's clean, I'm gonna drink from it.
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Okay, well, you drink. You drink and I'll talk. So welcome back.
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If you're a survivor's fan, we're
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always happy to be back. And I
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know I'm really glad you're here. I know that she is really glad you're here
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because she told me a few minutes ago that she was really glad everyone is
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here because we're talking about something that doesn't get enough
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airtime, I don't think. And it's that
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really heavy, suffocating feeling
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of guilt after a suicide loss. And
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I know we've talked about guilt in certain contexts, but we're going to
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talk about this in a very specific way today. And I'm coming at it
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from the perspective of the survivor of loss and the
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guilt that I have have maybe felt. And you're
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coming at it from an entirely different perspective, which is
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someone who is an attempt survivor, has had those
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ideations and didn't talk about it. And the guilt that you
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might have felt after the fact,
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feeling like you should have been more open and
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transparent about how you were feeling. Is that a pretty accurate way of putting it?
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100%. Okay, so
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what I'm talking about is the whole, what if
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I had walked to the bottom of the stairs that
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morning, guilt and jumped in bed with my dad like
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I had tried to do, but my mother stopped me
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or why didn't I see the signs
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sooner? I give myself a lot of grace for that one. And we've talked about
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that because I was 10 years old, so I didn't know that anything was going
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on and I couldn't have. So
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let's talk about it. Let's. You know what? I almost want to start with you
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because I'm actually. I know we've talked about my end of it plenty.
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I want to talk about your guilt
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that you might have felt. Oh, there was a ton of
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guilt. A ton. So, like, for
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me, I had been contemplating for
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probably two or three weeks before Christmas Day rolled around.
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But when I actually was able to open
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up to people and let people know what was going on, I felt guilty.
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But I also felt the same stigma and shame
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and weakness that I couldn't figure my own shit out. I felt
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bad that I couldn't open up and tell people what was going on, because
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for me, number one, I didn't understand what was going on in my head. I'd
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never felt like that way before. And I couldn't put a voice
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to what it was. As I talked to more and more people the day
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after Christmas, they were just mad. They were mad
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that I hadn't opened up. They were mad that I
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kept all this to myself. But what you have to understand is when you get
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to that state, you just don't know what to do.
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You don't. I was terrified, but I also
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was hurting really bad mentally. And I just
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couldn't figure out how I could tell anybody what
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was going on, because as you and I talk about all the time, there's still
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so much stigma out there and there's still a ton of shame.
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And you run these
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scenarios through your head of like, I shoulda, coulda, woulda,
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but didn't. And part of
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me is, you know, when I had that. When I had the phone in my
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hand, I was calling 988, I kept
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thinking about all the people that I would have left behind
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and all that love and care. And then
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I felt selfish. And it was really difficult for me to have that
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conversation with my wife because she was mad.
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She was really mad at me. But as time wore on,
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she started to understand that
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at the time, I didn't know how to explain what was going on.
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I have a question that I don't think I've ever asked you. And it relates
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back to what you just said about picking up the phone and talking to a
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988 counselor. I don't think I've ever asked you this before,
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and tell me if you don't want to answer my question,
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but when you were talking to the counselor,
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did you consciously talk about
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your feelings about how
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people would react if you completed a
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suicide? Did you talk about that? Do you mind me asking that? I
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think I did. I think the one thing that I remember
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the most is that they gave voice
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to what was going on inside of me, because that's the
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part I didn't understand at all. And
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I was 59 and a half at the time. I lived a pretty long life
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until I Got to that point and it's hard to
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answer it really. It's really hard to answer that because, number one, it
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was two years ago. A lot of, A lot of things have happened since then.
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But they, you know, I, I
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do remember talking about stigma and like feeling weak
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and feeling shame for even getting to this point. I
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felt like I should have been able to fix everything because I've been a fixer
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my entire life, but I couldn't fix myself. You know what
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I find to be so interesting is that there's so much focus.
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Something you just said made me think of this. There's so much focus
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on, oh, it's weak. It's weak if you
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can't handle your life. It's weak if you can't manage all your
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responsibilities. It's weak if you can't show up. All the
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reasons why we find weakness or all the places
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I should say where we find weakness. When are we going
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to start shifting that narrative and flipping it around
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and saying, it is so strong to pick up the phone
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and call 988. It is so empowering
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to express how you feel. It is such
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a show of resilience and
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fortitude and all the other words that
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you wanted to try and find a way through what you
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were feeling. Like, am I the only one out here who is. Really
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sees it that way? Like, I see what you did as such an
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incredible, incredible act of. Okay, now I'm going to list
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the words bravery and self love
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and awareness and strength.
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Like, I could keep going, but you get the point that
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I just wish that more people felt that way
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because everybody's out there talking about, oh, weakness, weakness,
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weakness. And that's such a. I will tell you
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that, you know that the one thing that the person on the
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other end of the phone told me that she was grateful that I picked
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up the phone and called her. When I went down the stairs and talked to
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my wife, she was grateful that I had the fortitude
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to actually pick up the phone. By the time everything came to a
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head, I was just broken. Broken in ways that
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I couldn't even describe. And
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part of me was like, I felt guilt for
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not helping people realize, like, why I was feeling the way I
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was. And not to laugh. It's just.
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It was a really surreal moment in my life
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that I don't ever want to relive again. Just don't.
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But I also learned a lot about myself in
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a really, like, short period of time. Like, like you said,
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I was brave. I was all these things
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my Hand was literally shaking when I was talking on
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that phone. I could barely dial the number.
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But as I'm dialing the number, all these other thoughts are coming in my head,
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like, what's the family going to think? What's your wife going to think? What are
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your friends are going to think? You should be thinking more about them
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and not about yourself. And, yeah, there was a ton of guilt that
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went into that phone call and a ton of guilt that went
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into days and months after that. I still feel
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guilty. I feel guilty for not opening up. But once
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again, I didn't know how to explain what was going on because I didn't understand
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it. And I think a lot of people out there have the same thing because
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they don't understand what's going on in our heads. That's the whole
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nature of being dysregulated. That's what is
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happening. You're not thinking clearly. Mental
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illness and depression and anxiety,
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they hijack our
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capacity and our ability to think clearly
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and rationally and make good decisions. So
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it's not surprising at all that you didn't know what the hell was going on
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or. Or how to navigate through it or how to put
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a name to any of it, because that's just where you were at. That's where
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anybody who is in that type of a
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headspace is at. So it does make perfect
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sense, and you shouldn't feel guilty for that now.
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And I'm saying this as a friend, I'm saying this
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as a human. I'm saying this as somebody who spends an awful lot of time
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listening to people say what you just said on crisis lifelines. And I
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answer it the same way. I say, it's not your fault.
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You just were dealing with what you were dealing with, which is
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relative to everybody. Everything is subjective. It depends on. Depends on who you are and
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what you're navigating through. But the fact
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is that you don't know what you don't know,
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and you can't fault yourself for that. I was just
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broken. I really was just broken. You know, I've also
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had, like, on the other side of that. So I've had friends that have taken
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their life and felt that immense guilt
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of. I should have listened better, I should
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have paid more attention. I should have called this person.
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I should have texted them. There's a ton of
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survivor's guilt that goes into that. And,
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you know, a lot of that kind of correlated, like, with my own attempt.
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Should have opened up more. Yes, we talk a lot about the
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losses that I've had being on the survivor of loss
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side of all of this. And there are three of them
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that I'm directly impacted by. When my cousin
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died, who was the very first one, he was 18, I was nine.
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Like, what did I know? And we were such
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different ages and we were
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really never together unless it was family thing.
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So there wasn't that relationship. There wasn't the ability
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to understand what someone was going through because
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we were having deep conversations or I worked with them or
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we were close friends. It wasn't like that. So that's not something
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I have ever felt guilt for. Obviously great
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sadness, but not guilt. Then flash forward to
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my dad, who, for those who don't know,
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died when I was 10. I was told it was a heart attack, but I
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found out 35 years later by accident that he had actually taken his life. So
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I had to kind of rewind. And last
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week we talked about grieving in reverse, which is exactly what I
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had to do, which was to grieve every single thing that I had already grieved
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before all over again through a different lens.
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And while I gave myself the same amount of grace, most of
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most of the same amount of grace that I gave myself
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when I was nine, losing my cousin, I was 10, losing my dad, who
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again, did not present like he was anyone who had any issues
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whatsoever. Super joyful and full of life and
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beautiful marriage and such a great dad. So
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I don't feel that guilt. I feel guilt that I've mentioned
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before in a more recent episode this season, and I
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alluded to it when we first started talking. I
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almost was the one to find him that morning. And
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it was only because my mom kind of intercepted me when
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I was about 5ft away from jumping into bed with my dad,
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who was, I'm sure, already gone. I think I
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didn't jump into bed with him. Instead, I ran back up to the kitchen so
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I didn't get punished. And
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I now, as an adult, rethinking that whole thing,
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have discovered a lot of guilt, thinking, well,
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shit, what if I had gone into bed? What if
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I had seen something was wrong? What if he was still alive? Like,
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that's the only way I can say it. That's what hits me. I almost
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fell off the chair in my therapist's office when I said that for the first
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time and was like, oh, my God, what if he was still alive?
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The truth is that when somebody dies by suicide, those of us who are left
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behind feel some sense of responsibility in some way.
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And the irony is we're really not responsible. In most cases, we
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are not responsible. And so why is that?
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Why do we feel that way? Because suicide's
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traumatic. Because suicide is confusing most
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people. Like you're looking at somebody like my dad or
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my friend who we lost only a few years ago. It's not expected.
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Nobody is presenting like there's anything wrong.
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So when we don't have that, why, we start
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manufacturing one. And it's almost usually at our own expense,
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don't you think? Oh, for sure. There's just so.
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There's so much that goes into it. So much. Yeah. And
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for those who did notice signs or who did
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try to help, which. Which wasn't the case
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with my own personal experience. Cause we didn't know anybody was. Was sick.
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You know, that guilt can feel a lot more complicated if I guess you know
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that there are issues that exist already.
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So then it becomes a. What else could I have said? What else could I
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have done? You have
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to remember that the person who's choosing this, if they've been
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successful or even if they aren't successful
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there, the choice they are making is not a choice made in
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clarity. You're making it in chaos. Yeah.
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Total chaos. Right. There's. Because there's so much going on in your
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head. Right. And trying to
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navigate, even dialing the phone number, dialing that
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number. The hardest thing in the world, it's dialing
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the number, thinking about all the other stuff that's going
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on. How are people going to
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view me if I don't do this or if
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I do do this? So much. So much.
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Yeah. Yeah. And then. And then, too, though, you. Okay. I feel like
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what you just described is true
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for a great number of attempt survivors out
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there. And I also think
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the same flop. Attempt survivors and those who have been
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successful. I also think it's fair to say
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that just as many people are out there who have either
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tried or succeeded in taking their lives
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are not thinking in the least bit about the people that they're
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leaving behind. And it's not for lack of love or lack of
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concern or lack of
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wanting to protect. It is because when
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you're in that suicidal, dysregulated mindset,
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you're not thinking about a goddamn thing. You're not. You're thinking
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about one thing and one thing only. And that's the pain that you are in
00:16:26
that is so insurmountable that you have to do the only
00:16:29
thing you can do to make it stop.
00:16:33
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00:17:41
So much truth to that. It's. It's just. It's a
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terrifying place to be and
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8 million things going through your mind of. And like
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you said, not about the normal everyday stuff, but
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it's more personal.
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It's more trying to find the word
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thinking. Give me a second. It's gonna take all the time we got all day.
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We're here all week. Because I'm old, I don't remember things. It
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was. It was a thought process
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that I never really had before. I hadn't
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taken the time to think about all these other things. And then at
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crunch time, I liken it to
00:18:30
somebody that actually sees their life flash before their
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eyes. That's what I saw. That's interesting.
00:18:37
I don't think you've ever said that to me. Yeah, it's hard
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to explain, but it's like if you think about. If
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you're about to be in a really bad accident, you see it coming. You can't
00:18:48
stop it. That's how I felt. Okay, that's
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fair. And I can only imagine those people who are listening
00:18:56
to this can identify with that. Like, we've all had the near miss
00:19:00
and we've all done the white knuckle thing on the steering wheel and the heart
00:19:04
goes a million miles an hour and I get it. Yeah, I understand. That's a
00:19:07
good way of putting it. So now we've
00:19:11
talked all about different perspectives on
00:19:14
guilt. How do we reframe it? What are the
00:19:18
tools that we can use to reframe it?
00:19:22
And I can speak for myself
00:19:25
and others that I've worked with just in terms of crisis
00:19:29
counseling, you know, that help you untangle
00:19:32
from that guilt. I'm Curious what you think, because
00:19:36
I know this first one is something that you have
00:19:40
either done. I've done it. But I think you've done it. Writing a
00:19:44
letter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To the person who you. Who
00:19:47
you lost, saying all the things that you
00:19:51
wished you could say but didn't get a chance to say. And
00:19:55
that's the whole bleeding the radiator perspective.
00:20:00
It's. Get everything that's filling you up and making you
00:20:03
want to blow out. Get it. Get it out into
00:20:07
a safe place so. So that the pressure
00:20:11
is relieved. Well, I have a different
00:20:14
perspective to that. So I wrote a letter to myself, to
00:20:18
my. To my past self, to myself
00:20:22
that was there that day to
00:20:25
show them how far we've come.
00:20:29
And it opened a lot of doors and it opened
00:20:33
my eyes to some things that I. I could have done better. Love that you
00:20:37
did that. I. Again, I don't think you've told me that either. Do we ever
00:20:40
talk, you and I? There's a lot of, like, things
00:20:44
like I keep to myself because it's just
00:20:48
my way of, like, dealing with all
00:20:53
the sadness and there's some grief and there's a whole bunch
00:20:56
of just really second guessing myself. But when I did
00:21:00
that, it made me realize that
00:21:05
maybe if I just opened my mouth just a tiny bit,
00:21:09
I wouldn't have felt so guilty. If I had let on
00:21:13
that I wasn't doing okay instead of my great,
00:21:17
awesome, extroverted mask. Which is great. It really is. But when
00:21:21
you're depressed, it is not the best thing to have. Like, I wish I
00:21:24
had taken my mask off sooner
00:21:28
rather than later because I paid the price. Yeah, well,
00:21:33
I'm the one who really suffered, right? And thankfully
00:21:37
for all of us who have you in our lives,
00:21:41
you figured it out. And now you're sitting in
00:21:45
a position of being able to either
00:21:48
remind or encourage other people to do the same thing. And that's
00:21:52
a powerful place to sit. So
00:21:57
as far as as other tools, we. We
00:22:01
want to not only talk about the problem or the issue, we want to talk
00:22:04
about how to fix it or how to work through it. Have you ever heard
00:22:07
of this concept, fact checking your guilt? Have you ever heard of that?
00:22:11
No. So, okay. Fact
00:22:15
check your guilt. Ask yourself.
00:22:19
Is the thing that I feel guilty about something that I
00:22:23
really, truly had control over? If the answer is no,
00:22:27
the guilt belongs to that grief and not to you.
00:22:32
That's an interesting concept, isn't it?
00:22:36
I think the other thing people can do too is like
00:22:40
journaling about,
00:22:45
you know, your grief and your Anger and just all that, all those things.
00:22:48
That helps a lot. It did for me. And I wasn't a big writer until
00:22:52
all the shit went down, but
00:22:56
super helpful. Even with me writing my book, because I went back through the
00:23:00
journal and everything that was a negative
00:23:05
and just didn't have any. Have any value. I rolled it up into a little
00:23:08
ball and I threw it away. And if it was fire
00:23:12
season, it would have gone in the fire pit. But I. That helped
00:23:16
me also, because guilt sucks. And it, like, it
00:23:19
eats you alive. Yeah, it does. It absolutely does.
00:23:23
But talking about it or writing about it
00:23:27
helps you process it. It also helps you when you
00:23:31
get it from that place of being lodged in your brain and in that
00:23:35
quiet, isolated space in your head and you start saying it out loud, even sometimes
00:23:39
saying something out loud, you'll be like, oh, that's dumb.
00:23:43
Why am I even. Why am I holding myself accountable for
00:23:46
that? Or why am I giving myself grief
00:23:50
over that thing? Once you breathe life into
00:23:54
it, you realize that it really doesn't have the power that you thought that it
00:23:57
had. So. And honestly, that's
00:24:01
why. So there's another tool, and this leads into the other
00:24:05
tool. That's why it's so incredibly powerful. The
00:24:08
tool of talking to other. Not
00:24:12
just people talking to other survivors. In your
00:24:16
case, it would be a survivor of someone who was ideating or had an attempt,
00:24:20
or for me, it would be talking to people who have lost other people
00:24:24
that they love to suicide. And just hearing
00:24:27
somebody say, I feel that too,
00:24:32
or I did that to. Or I said that too,
00:24:36
makes such a world of difference, because
00:24:39
as someone who has not made an attempt, I
00:24:43
can sit here and listen to you all day long and I can feel for
00:24:47
you and I can sympathize with you,
00:24:51
but I can't empathize with you because I don't feel that same thing that you
00:24:54
felt. So there was a disconnect. I can be as supportive
00:24:59
as I can be, but it doesn't change the fact that I haven't experienced what
00:25:02
you have experienced. But when you talk to somebody
00:25:06
else who has, I'm curious is, are you then in
00:25:09
a place where you're just, like, comforted by that? I am.
00:25:13
Yeah. Yeah. And it comforts them, too, because
00:25:17
now it all goes back to sharing your story. Every
00:25:21
time you share your story, you unlock somebody else's prison. But
00:25:25
now they don't feel so alone, and they felt seen and felt heard.
00:25:29
And that's how I feel. I felt seen and feel
00:25:32
heard. And there's so Many
00:25:36
different reasons why people have suicidal
00:25:40
ideations, but it all
00:25:43
boils back down to the messiness in her head
00:25:47
and the dysregulation. And in my case, I just.
00:25:51
I had a lot of really horrible things happen in
00:25:55
a really short period. Yeah. And that actually is
00:25:58
another good segue to the last tool in managing
00:26:02
the kinds of guilt that we've been talking about.
00:26:06
Therapy, Therapy, therapy, therapy.
00:26:09
Especially with somebody who understands trauma. So if you're someone
00:26:13
experiencing trauma, if you do not already have a trauma
00:26:17
informed therapist, go seek one out because it is
00:26:21
a game changer. It can be incredibly powerful
00:26:25
in helping you to reframe feelings of
00:26:29
guilt, which are really, really hard things to reframe.
00:26:32
It is. And my therapist, I, man, I. I love
00:26:36
that girl. She's the third one I. I'm with, but she's. She's the
00:26:40
best and she listens to me. She's not judge metal.
00:26:43
That's the other thing. When you're talking. Sometimes when you're talking to friends that just
00:26:47
don't get why you got to that place, they can
00:26:51
become very judgmental. Here's what happens when you go to
00:26:54
therapy. You don't get that judgment. And you
00:26:58
can. You can talk about this. You can talk about what you're really feeling and
00:27:02
how you got to that part, that point in your life. And thankfully for me,
00:27:06
my friends were amazing. Did I
00:27:10
lose a few friends because of all that went down? Yeah.
00:27:14
But my friends didn't judge. They were just
00:27:18
thankful that I'm still here. Like I am. I am
00:27:21
thankful I am still here. Yeah. It's
00:27:25
true. So the bottom line to all of this is
00:27:28
that guilt after a suicide loss or guilt after
00:27:32
a suicide attempt is common. It doesn't mean
00:27:36
it's justified. Doesn't mean that you should feel guilty, doesn't mean you needed
00:27:40
to feel guilty. Doesn't mean I need to feel guilty. Because
00:27:44
you were dysregulated in your
00:27:47
attempt. I loved the people that I lost
00:27:51
and didn't in most cases even know that they were suffering.
00:27:55
And what happened on either side wasn't anyone's fault.
00:28:00
So there's the remembering that
00:28:04
we're not alone in this and we don't have to carry guilt forever.
00:28:08
That's a big realization. You don't have to
00:28:12
carry it. It is possible to heal
00:28:16
even when those old thoughts creep in. And I think that one of the big
00:28:19
takeaways is if the thoughts creep in, let them creep. Let
00:28:23
them creep. Guilt is normal. It's normal. It's often
00:28:26
misplaced okay, sure. And it is an absolutely
00:28:30
appropriate response to a suicide loss. And. But just
00:28:34
because you feel responsible or you feel guilty doesn't mean you are
00:28:37
responsible or you are guilty.
00:28:41
So give yourself grace, patience and grace. It goes
00:28:45
a long way. We're doing the best we can at surviving. Am I
00:28:49
right? Amen, sister. Right on, baby.
00:28:53
Hey, thanks for going deep. You're welcome. I love you.
00:28:56
I love you. I'll see you next week. Yes, you will.
00:29:01
Thanks for joining us on the Survivors. Remember, no matter how tough things
00:29:04
feel, you are enough and the world needs you just the way you are.
00:29:08
You're not alone in this journey. There's a community here and every step forward
00:29:12
counts. We're so grateful you took the time to listen and we hope you'll
00:29:16
take one day at a time. Just know there's always more light ahead.
00:29:20
Thanks for being here. Friends, just remember, help is out there
00:29:24
in so many different place places. So if you or someone you know is struggling,
00:29:28
please call 988 and a trained crisis counselor like me will be
00:29:32
there to help. You can also find an inclusive and comprehensive directory of
00:29:36
mental health resources, tools and content at
00:29:38
thehelphub.co. just remember that help is always
00:29:42
just a call or a click away. We'll catch you next week. In the
00:29:45
meantime, keep surviving.