*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
Family estrangement is one of the most painful forms of grief because it asks us to mourn people who are still alive. In this deeply personal episode of The Survivors, Lisa and Natasha explore the complicated reality of walking away from relationships that have caused lasting harm. Through their own lived experiences, they talk about the emotional toll of toxic family dynamics, the loneliness that can come with choosing yourself, and the courage it takes to break generational cycles in pursuit of healing.
Together, they unpack why estrangement is rarely a single moment, but often the result of years of unresolved pain, broken trust, and repeated wounds. They discuss the role of accountability in reconciliation, the importance of setting healthy boundaries without guilt, and why protecting your mental health is never something you need to apologize for. Whether you've experienced estrangement yourself or you're trying to better understand someone who has, this conversation offers compassion, validation, and hope that healing is possible—even when the path forward looks different than you imagined.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Takeaways
- Estrangement is often a slow process, like death by a thousand cuts.
- Prioritizing your mental health may mean walking away from family.
- Sharing your truth can lead to feelings of isolation but is essential for healing.
- Accountability from family members is crucial for reconciliation.
- You have the right to set boundaries and protect your peace.
Chapters
00:00 - Understanding Estrangement: A Complex Topic 03:21 - Personal Experiences with Estrangement 06:23 - The Pain of Estrangement: Grieving Living Relationships 09:23 - Family Dynamics and Toxicity 12:29 - The Impact of Estrangement on Mental Health 15:24 - Navigating Estrangement: Self-Preservation and Boundaries 18:38 - The Loneliness of Estrangement 21:43 - Finding Freedom in Estrangement 24:50 - The Importance of Prioritizing Self-Care 27:52 - Hope and Healing Beyond Estrangement 30:37 - Final Thoughts on Estrangement and Moving Forward
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
- Surviving: Finding Hope After Suicide Loss (Familius Books)
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors. Real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:30 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Survivor's Podcast. Today we're going to talk
00:00:30 --> 00:00:35 about estrangement, which seems to be a hot topic these days.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:39 But, you know, when we're talking about estrangement, what comes to mind for you?
00:00:40 --> 00:00:45 Rejection, failure, freedom, or even survival?
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 You know, it can come in many different forms for a lot of us.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:55 I know this might be a foreign topic for you, Miss Lisa, but I know that you
00:00:55 --> 00:00:59 had mentioned in the past that maybe you had taken a step back from some friendships, maybe.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 Absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, I can't. That falls into that realm.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:09 Yeah, yeah. I mean, actually, we, believe it or not, have had some issues with
00:01:09 --> 00:01:12 estrangement from family members.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:17 It doesn't exist anymore, which is wonderful. So it kind of came back around.
00:01:17 --> 00:01:24 There was a period of time where we were not as connected to some family for
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 some very specific reasons.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:30 But that's actually resolved in a beautiful way.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:36 And, you know, for me, I haven't had the same experience that you've had,
00:01:36 --> 00:01:43 but I have absolutely had issues with friendships that, for whatever reason,
00:01:43 --> 00:01:52 turned out to not be healthy relationships, maybe for me, or had to step away. And it's hard.
00:01:52 --> 00:01:58 It's really hard. We talk a lot about loss on this podcast, a lot about grief,
00:01:58 --> 00:02:03 and most of it relates to losing somebody we love and care about.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:08 We don't talk a lot about how painful it is when that person's still around
00:02:08 --> 00:02:13 and you've lost that relationship and you have kind of cornered the market in
00:02:13 --> 00:02:18 that area because of how big your family is and because of the family dynamics.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:23 I want you to kind of take this conversation in the direction that you want
00:02:23 --> 00:02:28 to take it in, because you have got a lot of background worth sharing on this
00:02:28 --> 00:02:31 and ways that you've navigated it, because it's hard.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:37 It is incredibly hard. You know, having lost five brothers to suicide, my dad to cancer.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:47 I have to say that it is harder to grieve a living person than a dead person,
00:02:47 --> 00:02:55 especially in the terms of suicide, because they made that choice and.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:03 The ending is death. Whereas estrangement is either a personal decision for
00:03:03 --> 00:03:07 yourself or for your family member, they made that decision.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:12 But I have to say that my family has gone about it in an incredibly cruel way,
00:03:12 --> 00:03:18 in that there was, you know, I've gone through periods of time in my life where
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 I have been estranged from family members.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:26 I did the hard work. I showed up. I apologized and said, what can we do to make
00:03:26 --> 00:03:28 this better? And we worked through that.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 So let me back step a little bit.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:33 I come from the FLDS family.
00:03:34 --> 00:03:40 Synonymous with Warren Jeffs, cult leader. Break down that acronym for people who don't know.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:43 FLDS, tell them what that is. Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:47 And that is a polygamous cult in Utah.
00:03:48 --> 00:03:57 And I had three moms growing up. I have over 125 aunts and uncles because my
00:03:57 --> 00:04:01 parents come from extremely large families. I myself have 19 siblings.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:03 There's 20 of us all together.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 Obviously five are dead estranged from.
00:04:08 --> 00:04:14 Gosh i think five of them some of them are still in the flds cult so there hasn't
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 been any contact for a number of years,
00:04:17 --> 00:04:25 and then you know we had a massive amount of death between 23 and 22 2022 and
00:04:25 --> 00:04:29 and just last year in march was the most recent one And I thought that,
00:04:30 --> 00:04:34 through all of that, our family could put aside our bullshit and really come
00:04:34 --> 00:04:36 together, but it didn't stop.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 The toxic family cycles continued.
00:04:40 --> 00:04:46 And what really, I guess, sealed the coffin for my family was when you and I
00:04:46 --> 00:04:50 partnershiped on this podcast and you invited me to join you as co-host and
00:04:50 --> 00:04:53 I decided to come out publicly with my story,
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 for the very first time.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 And even before the podcast had aired its first official episode,
00:05:00 --> 00:05:04 Ours Together, that's when my family completely cut me off. I was talking to,
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 my one sister daily, and I hadn't heard from her.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:16 At all. Shoot. From the moment that the clips of our podcast started dropping,
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 my entire family cut me off.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 Except for one brother, but we have since become estranged. And so a lot of
00:05:25 --> 00:05:29 people feel like estrangement is, it happens easily.
00:05:29 --> 00:05:34 And it's just an instant knee-jerk reaction of one thing.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:40 But it's really, especially when it comes from a child and a parent-child dynamic,
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 it's like death by a thousand cuts.
00:05:44 --> 00:05:47 Because we're hardwired to want and need a relationship with our parents.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 But when you come to realize they're never going to change, and that can be
00:05:52 --> 00:05:56 a sibling's parents too, where they're not going to change and that toxic family
00:05:56 --> 00:05:57 cycle is going to continue.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:03 And when it becomes a detriment to me, for example, I had to choose,
00:06:03 --> 00:06:09 even though they cut off contact, I realized it would no longer serve me to
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 continue to beg for those relationships.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:16 And so, in my opinion, the trash took itself out.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:22 Well, look, you know what? I mean, parents, first of all, let me back up.
00:06:23 --> 00:06:27 When we think of families, we just have this natural assumption that families
00:06:27 --> 00:06:28 are not supposed to fall apart.
00:06:29 --> 00:06:33 That's your safe space. That's your unit. Those are your people,
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 your team, your safe place.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:42 And on top of that, parents are not supposed to lose relationships with their children.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 You just don't think of it that way. You think that, you know,
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 in terms of the parent-child dynamic, especially when a parent is parenting
00:06:50 --> 00:06:54 a younger child, that the child's not fully developed yet.
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57 We have to anticipate that there's going to be pushback and there's going to
00:06:57 --> 00:07:01 be stress and there's going to be drama and there's going to be tension at times. Yeah.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:06 I think we go into parenthood understanding and knowing that,
00:07:06 --> 00:07:12 I mean, it's not all perfect. It's not going to be what you necessarily expect
00:07:12 --> 00:07:16 it to be, but it doesn't mean you cut and run and abandon your child.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:22 And then when your relationship changes as your kids get older, still,
00:07:24 --> 00:07:30 you don't leave your child unless I would imagine the circumstances are so extreme
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 that they're life-threatening or they're, you know.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:40 In some way so toxic that you as a parent can't sustain that relationship.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:46 But kids aren't supposed to stop speaking to their parents either. So there's.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:53 This whole understanding that we all have that we're just supposed to be able
00:07:53 --> 00:07:57 to walk through it and siblings aren't supposed to be estranged from each other.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:02 And yeah, that's what society tells us. But the reality is that is not always
00:08:03 --> 00:08:08 the case it's just yeah and it's not it's there's always two sides to every
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 story you know and ending a relationship,
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 with somebody because,
00:08:15 --> 00:08:20 it's either deemed emotionally psychologically or physically unsafe and it's
00:08:20 --> 00:08:26 usually after repeated attempts to reconcile style have failed.
00:08:26 --> 00:08:32 And in my case, that is truly, you know, it was, I was tired of begging for
00:08:32 --> 00:08:37 the scraps and tired of being treated like the, you know, I was never good enough.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:42 But what really hurt, especially with my siblings, because I did speak about
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 the abuse that I endured at the hands of my mom.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:51 And my being sexually abused by my older brother. And, you know,
00:08:51 --> 00:08:55 my siblings were physically abused by my mom as well.
00:08:55 --> 00:08:59 And they stayed silent on it.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:05 And that's, again, that's their choice. That's fine.
00:09:05 --> 00:09:10 But it was really heartbreaking and a big betrayal for me to realize that they
00:09:10 --> 00:09:15 could not support me in my decision to speak publicly about it.
00:09:15 --> 00:09:21 But there was never any malice behind it. It was something that I had carried
00:09:21 --> 00:09:24 and had kept quiet about for 40 years.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:30 Well, 25 from the time I really had started having the flashbacks.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:37 I just couldn't continue to betray myself and stay loyal to a toxic family cycle
00:09:37 --> 00:09:39 that had claimed five of my brothers.
00:09:40 --> 00:09:45 And you shouldn't have. And that's such a huge act of self-care on your part
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 and self-love on your part.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:53 It's an incredibly hard and an incredibly brave thing to do to separate yourself
00:09:53 --> 00:09:59 from the people who are supposed to be in your corner and supporting you and
00:09:59 --> 00:10:00 going through life with you.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:06 But you have to prioritize yourself. Like your siblings who aren't talking,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 who aren't publicly acknowledging that or supporting your right to do that.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:17 Yeah, that's also, I suppose, that's their right as well to handle it the way they want to handle it.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:23 But you shouldn't be faulted for taking your story and doing whatever you feel
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 you need to do with that story to help you heal.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 Because I know you, and I've talked about this so many times,
00:10:27 --> 00:10:32 that being estranged the way that you are can be incredibly,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 incredibly isolating and lonely.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:42 And it's just compounded by the fact that you sharing your story has made it
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 even more isolating and lonely.
00:10:46 --> 00:10:50 And I'm just sorry for your sake and for all the other people out there who
00:10:51 --> 00:10:56 are doing something similar to you by talking about whatever it is that happened
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 to them in their lives and just kind of sharing your truth, owning your truth,
00:10:59 --> 00:11:00 whatever you want to call it.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:05 And you're losing things and losing people because of that.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:10 Like you said, you're not doing this with malice or ill intent or trying to
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 reach out and hurt someone or ruin someone's life or reputation.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 There should be an understanding that these things really happened to you,
00:11:17 --> 00:11:20 and this is the life you had to endure.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:25 And you, at the very least, reserve the right to be able to do with your story
00:11:25 --> 00:11:33 what you need to do with your story for your own peace of mind and to heal your own heart. Mm-hmm.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:38 Is the bottom line. Yep, exactly. And,
00:11:38 --> 00:11:44 those of us that, you know, I had chosen previously in the past myself to step
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 away, after years of trying to explain myself, set boundaries,
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 I'd forgive, reconnect,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 you know, explain away their behavior.
00:11:53 --> 00:11:58 Oh, they, you know, they experienced this, this is what, I can't tell you how
00:11:58 --> 00:12:02 many years I wasted explaining away their behavior.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:09 And it was like, you know, I was going through stuff too and I didn't treat you that way.
00:12:11 --> 00:12:14 So why did I continue to give them the benefit of the doubt?
00:12:15 --> 00:12:20 It just, it was no longer serving a purpose other than just continuing to excuse shitty behavior.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:25 Yeah, and we can't excuse shitty behavior. That's all that means.
00:12:26 --> 00:12:28 And it's unfortunate when...
00:12:29 --> 00:12:36 People feel like they need to avoid the truth or ignore the truth or not allow
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 someone to own their own.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:46 It just perpetuates a whole toxic cycle. And it's what leads to these breakdowns,
00:12:47 --> 00:12:51 in families. At the very least, you deserved the support of,
00:12:51 --> 00:12:55 hey, this is what happened to me. I'm telling the truth.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:00 I'm sharing my history, my lived experience. And at the very least,
00:13:00 --> 00:13:03 your family should have supported that because it's unfortunate that,
00:13:04 --> 00:13:12 optics takes over in that case for so many people where they're now embarrassed,
00:13:12 --> 00:13:17 because something that wasn't positive about their family came out.
00:13:17 --> 00:13:24 And now whatever image somebody's family was trying to maintain has been changed.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:30 And, you know, now all of a sudden, your mother probably feels like you betrayed
00:13:30 --> 00:13:37 her, that you don't respect her role as your mother.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:42 But the reality is, where was she when you were being abused?
00:13:42 --> 00:13:47 Where was she when you were dealing with the trauma of being sexually abused
00:13:47 --> 00:13:49 by your brother and got no support?
00:13:49 --> 00:13:55 Where were you where was she when you were making the attempts on your own life
00:13:55 --> 00:14:00 or or trying to navigate all of your brother's suicides,
00:14:00 --> 00:14:04 you know you can't have it both ways you can't you can't you can't just expect
00:14:04 --> 00:14:09 everybody to preserve your image and ignore their truth and that's what happened
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 in your case with your family and.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:18 It's unfortunate because if your mother had been more willing to own and accept
00:14:18 --> 00:14:23 what had happened, then there would have been a pathway for you to work through.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:26 Right, because there's accountability and that's just not something that she's
00:14:26 --> 00:14:32 actually even capable of. Yeah, yeah. And I know that. And so it comes down
00:14:32 --> 00:14:34 to recognizing accountability.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:41 That she will never change and saying, okay, she's not going to change.
00:14:41 --> 00:14:48 What can I do about that? And that is recognizing that it is no longer healthy
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 for me to continue to have a relationship with this person, you know,
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 and just because they're family, you know,
00:14:55 --> 00:14:59 hopefully we're moving in a direction that just because they're family does
00:14:59 --> 00:15:04 not mean that you have to forgive them, does not mean that they get unlimited
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 access to you or to your children.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:15 And because not only did she lose a relationship with me, but she's losing a
00:15:15 --> 00:15:16 relationship with her grandchildren.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:22 And that's the saddest part, is that facing the truth,
00:15:22 --> 00:15:27 or actually her walking away and saying, I don't want anything to do with you
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 anymore, was easier for her,
00:15:30 --> 00:15:36 than to be accountable for her actions and work on a relationship and then have
00:15:36 --> 00:15:37 a relationship with her grandchildren.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:40 It's easier for her to just walk away and say, I'm done.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:46 And I was like, okay, you know, because that's what had happened in the past
00:15:46 --> 00:15:50 is I would make a mistake or whatever, and I would come to her and apologize.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:54 You know, I cannot tell you how many times my mom and I got in fights over the years.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 The longest time we did go without speaking, I believe, was.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:05 Four years prior. And so right now we're about at the nine-month mark.
00:16:05 --> 00:16:09 And I actually was in Utah a few weeks ago.
00:16:09 --> 00:16:13 And a lot of my friends here were like, oh, are you going to see your family?
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 And I didn't intend to see anyone in my family.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20 I did, however, see one of my brothers. We went out to dinner and,
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 you know, had a good conversation. And,
00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 and explained a few things to him.
00:16:27 --> 00:16:31 And he tried to say something along the lines of, yeah, we're family,
00:16:31 --> 00:16:35 we love each other unconditionally. I said, no, not in our case.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of the Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:16:40 --> 00:16:44 If you're listening right now and you're not okay, if you're feeling overwhelmed,
00:16:45 --> 00:16:49 stuck, or like you're carrying more than you can handle, please know you don't
00:16:49 --> 00:16:50 have to go through it alone.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:57 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:16:57 --> 00:17:01 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment,
00:17:01 --> 00:17:06 reaching out is a brave first step and you owe it to yourself because your life
00:17:06 --> 00:17:12 matters your story matters and help is always just three numbers away.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:19 We do not know what it's like to be loved unconditionally.
00:17:19 --> 00:17:26 We have never, none of the children in our family have experienced unconditional love.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:31 And that is why there are five of us that have taken their lives.
00:17:32 --> 00:17:37 And the vast majority, if not all of the rest of us, have either attempted or
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39 contemplated taking our own lives.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:44 And so, you know, that's, When I have extended family members that reach out
00:17:44 --> 00:17:48 to me and they want to know, all I can say,
00:17:49 --> 00:17:55 I say, if you really want to question the validity of what we endured in our
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 home, why are five of my brothers dead?
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02 That's the only answer you need to look at. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:08 Yeah. And obviously, in the case of your family and that statistic,
00:18:09 --> 00:18:14 I've never, in all the work I've done in this space, in the suicide awareness
00:18:14 --> 00:18:18 and prevention space, and as a survivor myself, I have never encountered anyone,
00:18:19 --> 00:18:24 who has lost that many, and I know you haven't either, who's lost that many people from one family.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:28 And clearly, when you put.
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 That truth, that fact, together with the fact that,
00:18:33 --> 00:18:38 like we talked about earlier, you were born into the FLDS polygamy cult that
00:18:38 --> 00:18:44 is highly, highly toxic, highly extremist,
00:18:45 --> 00:18:52 and rigid, and suffocating in so many ways, and abusive in so many ways.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 You didn't have a chance. you didn't have a chance i mean that is what you were
00:18:58 --> 00:19:03 born into and and had your parents so i know that in your story your parents
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 did get your family got excommunicated because your father,
00:19:08 --> 00:19:15 your grandfather was the you know he was the prophet he was the the guy and
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 then your uncle warren jeffs took over,
00:19:18 --> 00:19:23 and kind of superseded all of his siblings and just kind of took it from your
00:19:23 --> 00:19:27 grandfather and then excommunicated your dad so.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:33 I mean and i guess that was a good thing because you got out at least but that doesn't change,
00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 you know the decades of dysfunction that happened and the generations right
00:19:38 --> 00:19:43 that is the the generational trauma is really what it speaks to and,
00:19:44 --> 00:19:49 you know there's so many people out there that you know it it doesn't have to
00:19:49 --> 00:19:56 be like this huge thing you know of my gosh my childhood was so bad it just even if you,
00:19:57 --> 00:20:00 just felt like you know what i didn't get the support that i needed growing up,
00:20:01 --> 00:20:04 because there wasn't the emotional literacy or whatever if you feel like your
00:20:04 --> 00:20:09 childhood was robbed in some way and your parent your parent or family member,
00:20:09 --> 00:20:13 lacks the ability either intentionally or unintentionally to be accountable
00:20:14 --> 00:20:19 for the ways that they hurt you and you feel like i'm tired of begging for breadcrumbs.
00:20:19 --> 00:20:23 It's okay for you to go, you know what, I either need to limit my exposure to
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 this person or cut off altogether.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:31 And that never, ever comes with an easy decision. No. It is...
00:20:33 --> 00:20:38 It is so there's a lot of grief that comes with that some guilt shame that comes
00:20:38 --> 00:20:42 along with that decision because it's never easy no it's not but,
00:20:43 --> 00:20:47 it's like what you and i talk about so often on the pod is that,
00:20:48 --> 00:20:52 we can't and i'm not just talking about in the context of estrangement i'm talking
00:20:52 --> 00:20:57 about just in life in general with people is that we absolutely can't count
00:20:57 --> 00:20:59 for what other people say or do.
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 We can't control it. We can't control their responses.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 The only thing that we can control is how we respond to it.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:09 And that's what you're saying. It's how we react to it.
00:21:09 --> 00:21:13 And we all reserve the right. And I think that's the essence of this conversation.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 Or the message that you and I are trying to send within this conversation is
00:21:18 --> 00:21:22 that if you're out here and you're listening to us and you're estranged from
00:21:22 --> 00:21:26 a friendship or estranged from a family member or from,
00:21:27 --> 00:21:31 some important relationship in your life and you feel like you've had to do that.
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 You've had to do exactly what Natasha just said, which is to pull out,
00:21:33 --> 00:21:34 pull away, limit your time.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:39 There comes a point in time where you hit a crossroads where you're either thinking
00:21:39 --> 00:21:44 about them and doing whatever you need to do to appease, please satisfy that
00:21:44 --> 00:21:49 person or those people, or you're prioritizing yourself.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:54 And every single one of us, whether it's easy or not, and it's not easy,
00:21:55 --> 00:22:00 we all reserve the right to think about ourselves to prioritize ourselves to
00:22:00 --> 00:22:08 care for ourselves because look at the end of the day we can't pick our family period we can't,
00:22:08 --> 00:22:12 we have chosen family you and I have become chosen family but.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:17 Can't pick the ones that you start off with. And unfortunately,
00:22:17 --> 00:22:23 in a lot of cases, you know, we don't hit the lottery in that way.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27 And it's sad. And it's, you know, and it sucks. And like you said,
00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 there's a lot of loss involved. A lot. Yeah.
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 And I just want to tell people out there, you know, if you feel like you're
00:22:33 --> 00:22:35 alone in this journey, you're not.
00:22:36 --> 00:22:41 Actually, a recent survey that was conducted last year said that 38% of adults,
00:22:41 --> 00:22:46 American adults, are estranged from at least one family member. Really?
00:22:47 --> 00:22:50 That's interesting. That's really interesting. You know.
00:22:51 --> 00:22:56 And I think sometimes people also assume that maybe it's easy,
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58 and you kind of alluded to this a little while ago, you know,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:04 that it's like a simple, easy decision, like, oh, separate and just move forward in your life.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 But when you make that decision, it's so complicated. It has to be.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 I mean, I know I haven't done it with really with family per se,
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 but I've definitely done it with friends.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:18 And yeah, okay, the act of doing that may be an act of self-preservation,
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20 which is important, which you should honor.
00:23:20 --> 00:23:27 But there's a lot that comes along with that decision. And, you know,
00:23:27 --> 00:23:32 there are definitely two sides usually to those circumstances.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:39 But, you know, at the end of all of it, you have to be able to prioritize yourself,
00:23:39 --> 00:23:46 and your well-being. Because for you and your situation, had you stayed connected...
00:23:47 --> 00:23:52 And you didn't follow your own heart and start talking about the thing that
00:23:52 --> 00:23:56 you knew that you needed to start talking about in order to,
00:23:56 --> 00:23:58 you know, work on your own healing.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 If you hadn't done that, imagine where you would be, where you could be right
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 now with all of that still living inside you, all that toxicity.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:09 And, you know, I think it's a hard decision, but I think anybody who makes that
00:24:09 --> 00:24:14 decision to put themselves first is making the right decision.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:19 In that you have to because you know nobody else is is going to do that for
00:24:19 --> 00:24:23 you and certainly if your family's the one that's the problem and they're not
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 the ones doing that they should be looking out for you and when they're not
00:24:26 --> 00:24:28 looking out for you who's left.
00:24:30 --> 00:24:35 Exactly. You know? You know, I think about oftentimes where maybe there's some
00:24:35 --> 00:24:40 people out there who are like, hmm, is it, you know, or they question whether or not they should.
00:24:41 --> 00:24:48 I have to tell you, you have to look or even realize, how do you feel when you're
00:24:48 --> 00:24:53 about to hang out with your family or whoever it is you might be estranged with,
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55 or are contemplating estranged?
00:24:55 --> 00:25:00 How do you feel beforehand and how do you feel afterwards?
00:25:00 --> 00:25:06 If you are wrought with anxiety, just all these different feelings of just upset
00:25:06 --> 00:25:10 or whatever, you don't feel good going into it. And then afterwards,
00:25:10 --> 00:25:12 you're completely emotionally drained.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:14 You feel bad about yourself.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:19 That's not a healthy relationship, whether they're family or not.
00:25:19 --> 00:25:22 I'm really glad that you said that because that's an important part of all of this.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:28 It's dialing into how does this relationship really make me feel?
00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 And a lot of it, I would imagine, it requires a lot of like brutal honesty with
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 yourself about like, wow, I,
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 can't be around these people. I don't feel supported around these people.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:45 I feel worse about myself when I'm engaging with these people.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 And that's got to be, that's why there's so much grief attached to this.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:55 It's not just the grief of losing those people and of losing that relationship,
00:25:55 --> 00:25:59 but it's also of recognizing that the people who you thought should have your
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 back and care about you the most aren't,
00:26:02 --> 00:26:06 aren't caring about you and don't have your back. And that's...
00:26:07 --> 00:26:11 Hard. That's hard and that's really painful.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:17 And it's lonely too. That's a lot of why people maybe continue to stick it out
00:26:17 --> 00:26:22 because they don't want to be alone and miss out on the family parties and things like that.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 And that is hard. I'm not going to lie.
00:26:27 --> 00:26:32 Every single holiday is really hard because I know that my family is getting
00:26:32 --> 00:26:39 together, they're celebrating, and and i miss what used to be what that used to look like but,
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 i i have to say being on the other side of it.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:50 And really detaching myself and i know that i had because in going back to utah,
00:26:51 --> 00:26:55 i didn't feel that feel that emotional draw or.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:04 I truly have emotionally disconnected from my family I went and had drinks with
00:27:04 --> 00:27:05 a very dear family friend.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 She's known my family for longer than I've been alive.
00:27:08 --> 00:27:13 And I realized in that conversation that I had truly emotionally disconnected
00:27:13 --> 00:27:18 with my family, and it was incredibly freeing to know that there wasn't that
00:27:18 --> 00:27:19 umbilical cord attachment.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:24 And so there is hope on the other side of it. There is some liberation, some freedom, some.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:32 Finding yourself and feeling like you can be yourself and know who you are without
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 that negative pull in your life.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:39 So I just want to say that if you do feel like you're considering it,
00:27:40 --> 00:27:46 maybe just take a few weeks or a month and away from whoever it is and see how
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 you feel. Start with small chunks, you know.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:54 I have to say that, so I didn't have any, I was not aware of anything that was
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 going on with my family for a number of months,
00:27:58 --> 00:28:03 and then again family friend called we're catching up she's very close with my family still,
00:28:04 --> 00:28:13 and she unloaded all this shit that had been going on with my family in the last few months and i,
00:28:13 --> 00:28:16 it railroaded me really it did,
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20 It was literally like somebody dumped a,
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 dump truck of shit on me.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 I felt gross. I felt icky.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:32 I hated it. It completely emotionally drained me for days. Really? Yep.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:38 Now, tell me why. What about it? Was it hearing about them? Was it hearing about
00:28:38 --> 00:28:40 what was it was going on with them?
00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 Yeah, it was a lot of negative going on with them. And I did,
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 it was more or less, I guess, like, what am I supposed to do with this information?
00:28:50 --> 00:28:55 Am I supposed, am I expected to reach out to them and offer my support,
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 which I didn't feel like I should have to.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:02 It was really just, it was a sadness and that, yeah, somebody was,
00:29:02 --> 00:29:05 one of my siblings was actually really close to death.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 And so there was talk of whether or not I would, you know, with my husband,
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12 whether or not I would attend the funeral and I had decided that I'm done.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:15 Attending any more family funerals. Mm-hmm.
00:29:16 --> 00:29:20 For my family, at least. And so, yeah, it just,
00:29:21 --> 00:29:24 so I thought back, you know, in all those months where I didn't know what was
00:29:24 --> 00:29:29 going on, and even years prior where I had gone four or five years without having
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 contact with the majority of my family, and I think about those periods of times,
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 how did I feel internally?
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 I felt so much better about myself.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 I was more confident in myself about my ability to be a mother.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:50 I just felt better emotionally, psychologically, as a human being without my family and my life.
00:29:50 --> 00:29:58 Well, and I think that is the perfect message to send in this conversation because
00:29:58 --> 00:30:01 what we're talking about is something really, really hard.
00:30:01 --> 00:30:05 It's one thing if the decision's made for you and you're on kind of the receiving
00:30:05 --> 00:30:09 end of someone breaking from you, estranging from you.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:15 We're talking, I think, more about ourselves being the ones to make that decision.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:20 And it's really hard. It's really, really hard and painful.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 And did I do the right thing and look at what I'm giving up?
00:30:22 --> 00:30:28 But what you just said about the way that you were feeling and recognizing,
00:30:28 --> 00:30:33 like, I can acknowledge the fact that it's painful and it's hard and I probably,
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36 have nostalgia for certain things and miss certain things.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:41 But at the end of the day, I feel better in general. I feel better about myself
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 and about my life. And I feel that strength.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:48 There's the answer. There's the answer. When you're sitting there saying something
00:30:48 --> 00:30:53 like that, after hearing about your family or being with your family,
00:30:54 --> 00:30:55 then you know you've made the right decision.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:01 You just have to accept the fact that with a decision that might be the right
00:31:01 --> 00:31:05 one for you, there are lots of different angles of that decision.
00:31:05 --> 00:31:09 There are parts of it that you wish you didn't have to deal with,
00:31:09 --> 00:31:15 but overall, that's what you need to be doing for your own peace of mind, so you do it.
00:31:16 --> 00:31:19 And then you know it's the right decision to make.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:24 Absolutely. Absolutely. Before we wrap up, I love this conversation because
00:31:24 --> 00:31:28 I feel like there are so many people out there right now, like you said,
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30 when we started talking about how,
00:31:31 --> 00:31:36 just the whole concept of estrangement has become such a mainstream topic.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:42 If there's somebody listening right now who is like carrying the weight of estrangement,
00:31:42 --> 00:31:48 maybe they are already estranged or they're contemplating it and feel like they
00:31:48 --> 00:31:50 might need to do that for themselves.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:53 Whether they're the one who stepped away or whether they're the one who was
00:31:53 --> 00:31:59 kind of left behind, what would you want them to hear right now that you think
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 would be the most helpful for them in that moment?
00:32:02 --> 00:32:09 You know, I actually wrote a poem several months ago.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 You're trying to find it on your phone? All right.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 We've gone no contact before, but this time feels different.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:20 There wasn't a huge fight, no better words, no slam doors.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 Just a quiet distancing that finally let me see them for who they truly are.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:29 People who will never change, who feel safer repeating the same toxic cycles.
00:32:30 --> 00:32:33 Even though we share blood, they become strangers to me.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:38 So I'll close the door softly and move forward with my life towards something greater.
00:32:39 --> 00:32:43 Without the weight of generational trauma, I can finally become who I was meant
00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 to be and fully step into my purpose.
00:32:45 --> 00:32:51 Well, if that isn't the most appropriate thing to say to answer that question,
00:32:51 --> 00:32:54 then I don't know what there is to say.
00:32:54 --> 00:32:59 Thank you for sharing that. That was, I think, the thing that most people in
00:32:59 --> 00:33:02 that situation would really need to hear.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:07 So take it to heart friends and and like we always say if something,
00:33:07 --> 00:33:10 resonated with you if some part of our conversation something i said or something
00:33:10 --> 00:33:15 natasha said resonated with you you want to share your own experience with us
00:33:15 --> 00:33:19 because maybe you've been estranged and you you've been where natasha is and.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:24 You want to share your own experience we are here for it we want to hear from
00:33:24 --> 00:33:30 you we we would love to kind of help you navigate that in whatever way we can
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32 from the benefit of our own experience.
00:33:32 --> 00:33:33 So give us a shout, let us know.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:37 And in the meantime, just like take care of yourself, you know,
00:33:37 --> 00:33:41 take care of yourself, prioritize yourself. That's what this whole conversation boils down to.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:46 And keep surviving. We'll be back next week. See you then. Talk to you soon.
00:33:47 --> 00:33:51 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:55 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone, and you're definitely
00:33:55 --> 00:33:59 not broken. Healing takes time, and it looks different for everyone.
00:34:00 --> 00:34:04 The fact that you're still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:34:05 --> 00:34:09 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:34:09 --> 00:34:10 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:15 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:34:19 --> 00:34:20 help is always out there.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:25 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:34:25 --> 00:34:29 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:34:36 --> 00:34:40 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:45 Until then, take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.