*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
Michelle Dempsey‑Multeck, author of Moms Moving On, joins Lisa & Natasha to explore the hidden grief of divorce, the challenges of co‑parenting, and how childhood trauma shapes adult choices.
They discuss practical strategies for protecting your emotional well‑being, setting boundaries, and helping children through the transition while accepting what you cannot control.
Honest, compassionate, and hopeful, this conversation offers real guidance for anyone navigating separation, rebuilding identity, and moving forward.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Key Topics
- Michelle's personal journey through divorce and motherhood
- The grief attached to divorce and how to process it
- The importance of boundaries and intentionality in co-parenting
- Radical acceptance as a tool for emotional peace
- The impact of childhood experiences on adult relationships
- The role of therapy and self-awareness in healing
- Managing expectations of a 'perfect' divorce and co-parenting
- Supporting children through divorce and understanding their unique experiences
Takeaways
- Divorce is a long process of grief that can take four to five years.
- Women often feel they can't grieve their divorce because they initiated it.
- Supporting the relationship between children and their other parent is crucial, but not your responsibility to control.
- Radical acceptance helps in reacting to what you can control and reduces stress.
- Children's experiences of divorce are unique and influenced by each parent's behavior.
- Healing from childhood trauma is essential for healthy adult relationships.
- Setting boundaries and focusing on your own well-being benefits your children and yourself.
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction and Michelle's background 02:08 - The start of Michelle's journey with divorce and social media 04:11 - The creation of the 'Mom's Moving On' book and community 07:58 - The emotional impact and grief of divorce 09:45 - Understanding the grief women experience when initiating divorce 11:12 - The 'death by a thousand cuts' analogy in emotional exhaustion 13:14 - Supporting children through divorce and managing their relationship with the other parent 17:20 - The importance of focusing on your own orbit and boundaries 20:49 - The stress of managing relationships with ex-partners and second marriages 23:09 - Radical acceptance and reacting to what you can control 25:13 - Managing your own reactions and expectations in co-parenting 30:06 - The impact of childhood trauma and family dynamics 36:30 - The importance of discernment in sharing information with children 44:26 - Michelle’s reflection on surviving childhood trauma 45:20 - Final thoughts on moving forward and community support
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
- Surviving: Finding Hope After Suicide Loss (Familius Books)
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- Connect with Michelle Dempsey-Multack here: https://v2.stan.store/themichelledempsey?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAcGRvZgJleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA85MzY2MTk3NDMzOTI0NTkAAafzxgLRcIFkkAKD1CIfSPQAQhdjNmD6rBfj2oUcdcYx6PLSMYHi7fc6dEMK3w_aem_TOKhTyeHKrIJCmQ0L3_KDw
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:12 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:25 --> 00:00:29 Other. Michelle, I cannot even believe that after all of these years of knowing
00:00:29 --> 00:00:33 each other through social media, I'm finally staring at you live.
00:00:33 --> 00:00:36 Obviously, you're in a little square, but we're connected in person.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:40 I'll take the square if that's what I have to settle for. That's okay.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:44 That's okay. I just, I love the fact that you're here. I actually went through
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 our DMs last night just because I was curious.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:54 And we first connected in 2019 after, I think it was my second or third book
00:00:54 --> 00:00:58 about how to raise perfectly imperfect kids and be okay with it, we connected over that,
00:00:59 --> 00:01:04 which is wild because here we are seven years later and both of our lives and
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 work have taken us in so many different directions since then.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:13 And I just love the fact that we've kind of come back around and that you can be here on the pod.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:19 So we are so, so excited to welcome Michelle Dempsey Multak.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:23 She is what we're calling divorce expert.
00:01:23 --> 00:01:27 You wrote a book, a bestselling book called Moms Moving On.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:33 You have really been such a strong and vocal advocate for divorce,
00:01:34 --> 00:01:38 how to navigate it, how to come out on the other side of it, and how to thrive.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:42 And this is a subject that we've just really never talked about,
00:01:42 --> 00:01:43 Nash, you and I on the pod.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:47 So I feel like we have a lot to catch up on.
00:01:47 --> 00:01:52 Yes do me a favor first of all welcome we're so glad you're here thank you i'm
00:01:52 --> 00:01:57 so honored to finally have this opportunity because i have admired you for so
00:01:57 --> 00:02:01 long oh you're sweet um and we've both come such a long way like how many books have you put out since,
00:02:02 --> 00:02:10 2019 like you're a machine yeah i mean i don't sleep a lot i've put out one since 2022,
00:02:10 --> 00:02:14 you know resting comfortably and not still but no this is this is really great
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 i've always admired your work as you know and so this is a lovely opportunity for me.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:23 Well, I appreciate that. And I have admired you right back in all the same ways.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:31 So we're just glad you're here. So take us back. Take us back to how Moms Moving On even started.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:36 Just wherever you think is the best jumping in point to kind of fill people
00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 in who don't know you and what you do.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:43 Give us the story. Yeah. 2017, I got separated. My daughter was two.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:50 I had already been blogging and writing for a bunch of outlets about motherhood
00:02:50 --> 00:02:55 and marriage and date nights and all those types of things. And then I ended up separated.
00:02:55 --> 00:03:00 And I remember it was with Scary Mommy, who I had been writing for,
00:03:00 --> 00:03:03 that I had this idea for an article about.
00:03:03 --> 00:03:07 What it's like to really be a single mom with a two-year-old when all of your
00:03:08 --> 00:03:12 social circles are full of happily married people and people pregnant with their children.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:16 Second babies and you're 33 and poor and like, don't know what to do next.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:22 And they, they were open to the idea. And so this sort of world as the divorce
00:03:22 --> 00:03:29 girl on social media was born, it wasn't, you know, 2017, we were just a couple
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 of years into Instagram being.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:36 Instagram and not many people were covering this topic.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:43 And I think because the majority of content out there for divorced women was
00:03:43 --> 00:03:48 looking more at like the gray divorce or the empty nest divorce type of thing,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 there was no support for women my age.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:54 And so I felt really good about creating that. I was very careful and intentional,
00:03:54 --> 00:03:58 just kind of speaking from the heart where I was coming from incorporating my
00:03:58 --> 00:04:01 experience as a child of divorce.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:07 And in the beginning of 2020, my following had grown so much and people were
00:04:07 --> 00:04:11 constantly sending in questions that I didn't know how to answer.
00:04:11 --> 00:04:14 And my late stepdad always said, if you can't answer something intelligently,
00:04:14 --> 00:04:15 don't say anything at all.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:20 So I started my podcast to bring on experts who can speak to these questions.
00:04:20 --> 00:04:24 And unbeknownst to me, COVID was going to happen two months later,
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 which trapped everybody at home listening to podcasts.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:33 So it kind of helped catapult the podcast really quickly. And then I decided
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 to put my money where my mouth was and get certified and trained.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 I have a double master's in education and special education,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 but I really wanted to know more about the work and how to help people.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 So I became a certified divorce specialist and then a certified co-parenting
00:04:48 --> 00:04:50 specialist because that's really where my passion is.
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 And then people started asking where they could buy my book.
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 So I was like, oh, I guess I got to write one. And I did.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:00 And that's how Mom's Moving On came to be.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:06 I love that. And it's just, you know, as someone, and Natasha's,
00:05:06 --> 00:05:07 I know, had the same experience.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:15 As people who have changed their career path almost overnight as a result of
00:05:15 --> 00:05:21 whatever trauma or whatever lived experience we've had that's been so,
00:05:22 --> 00:05:29 massive in our life, I totally can understand how you just were in this space
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 that you not only were passionate about, but you were living it in the moment
00:05:32 --> 00:05:34 and you just decided to take what you,
00:05:34 --> 00:05:38 had accumulated in your own life and put it back out into the world.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:43 And I just, I love when I get to see people doing that in such a way,
00:05:43 --> 00:05:47 the way that you have, and you use the word intentional, which if there was
00:05:47 --> 00:05:50 a word that I could use to describe your content, because I've been following
00:05:50 --> 00:05:51 you now for so many years,
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 it is so deeply intentional.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:58 And you are filling, I think, a very important gap in that.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:02 In terms of, you know, that support. And I know that, you know,
00:06:02 --> 00:06:08 like grief and loss and mental illness and depression, all the things that we
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 at least talk about here on this podcast, these are things that people are constantly
00:06:11 --> 00:06:12 feeling like they're alone in.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:17 And you've created a community. And that is such a beautiful thing.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:21 Thank you. That's nice to hear. You know, even today, all these years later,
00:06:21 --> 00:06:24 people will stop me like out and about or send me a message Like,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:28 you know, I know I don't know you, but five years ago, you helped me through
00:06:28 --> 00:06:29 the darkest time in my life.
00:06:29 --> 00:06:35 And it's just like, wow. Like, I still don't recognize the impact.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:36 So that's really nice to hear.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 And it drives me. It drives me, you know, like I'm in a whole different phase
00:06:41 --> 00:06:45 of my life now than I was when I first got separated almost 10 years ago.
00:06:45 --> 00:06:49 You know, but it's turned into blended parenting and co-parenting a tween and
00:06:50 --> 00:06:51 all the things that change.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:55 You know, I, once I thought I like had this down to a science,
00:06:55 --> 00:07:01 like my daughter developed a voice of her own and I was remarried and now I'm a step-mom.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:05 And so the whole, all the content has evolved with me. And, you know,
00:07:05 --> 00:07:11 one thing I'm proud of is I'm not, I'm not on social media to try and like engage
00:07:11 --> 00:07:13 the masses. Like I can just speak to what I know.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16 I mean, I'm sure, you know, the comments you get, that's like,
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 well, what about, I don't know what about, I'm talking about what I know,
00:07:19 --> 00:07:22 you know, like I, and, and that's, and that's something that I'm really proud
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 of because it's a it's rough out there on social media these days
00:07:25 --> 00:07:31 it's very very rough yeah yeah Natasha and I have definitely had our experiences
00:07:31 --> 00:07:34 with you know people chiming in trolls,
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 doing their troll work and and it's just it's unfortunate that.
00:07:40 --> 00:07:45 People who have nothing better to do are really trying to trample on people
00:07:45 --> 00:07:50 who are trying to do some good in the world. So we totally hear you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:56 So I thought it would be important because I feel like this is an important
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 part. You kind of alluded to it a minute or two ago.
00:07:59 --> 00:08:03 Something for us to talk about is the grief attached to divorce.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:08 I don't know that people often, maybe you'll tell me yes, they do or no, they don't.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:16 The grief that's attached to divorce, I don't think it's something that people recognize right away.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:20 No, and what's unfortunate is, you know, I don't think it's any secret at this
00:08:20 --> 00:08:26 point that women initiate divorce more than men, but women who initiate divorce
00:08:26 --> 00:08:31 are not allowed to feel sad because you chose this, right?
00:08:31 --> 00:08:33 Or, you know, and this is something I talk about all the time.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:38 It's like a woman doesn't just wake up one day and it's like, you know what? Screw it.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:44 Eat pray love i'm out of here it's not like that the average woman spends between
00:08:44 --> 00:08:48 four and five years contemplating going back and forth in her head trying everything
00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 to make it work before one day she decides she's done,
00:08:51 --> 00:08:55 and there is still so much grief involved in having to be the one to make that
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 decision because now you're grieving,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:02 the pain that you might have caused somebody else you're grieving all the years
00:09:03 --> 00:09:07 of what might feel like wasted energy and effort that you put into trying to make this work.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:11 You're grieving for the life you thought you'd be giving your children. There is so much.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:15 And I always tell people like you are in touch, whether you chose this or not,
00:09:15 --> 00:09:19 you're still entitled to your feelings because you're, whether you chose it
00:09:19 --> 00:09:20 or not, your whole world is changing.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:23 Your social circles are changing. Your family dynamics are changing.
00:09:23 --> 00:09:27 Your time with your kids is now going to look very different than it used to.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:33 There is a lot to grieve. And I, I, what I'd like to think is I give people permission.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:38 To, you know, cause people, people feel like audacious like how could I how
00:09:38 --> 00:09:43 could I be sad if I chose this well two things can be true you could have chosen
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 this and also it could be really freaking hard yeah,
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 yeah I think I think what you're doing in terms of validating that that's a
00:09:51 --> 00:09:55 that's a real thing that people have to go through and we didn't even talk about the part.
00:09:56 --> 00:10:01 Of the, if you're talking about the wife initiating, the grief that the children
00:10:01 --> 00:10:05 are feeling and having to, you've got your own set of issues.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 And now all of a sudden you're also dealing with your children's issues as well,
00:10:10 --> 00:10:11 which I can only imagine.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:16 I mean, that's, that's a whole separate situation to have to deal with.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:20 That's so unique, I'm sure to every family, but yeah. Yeah.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad that you said everything you just said,
00:10:23 --> 00:10:28 because I feel like it just gives this universal permission to acknowledge like
00:10:28 --> 00:10:33 how shitty this is and how hard this is on everybody and how much changes.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:38 Right. Nobody makes a decision because they think like, it's going to be so fun.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:43 I am just going to rock this. Like I didn't go into my divorce feeling that
00:10:43 --> 00:10:47 way. I went into my divorce knowing that there was no other option.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:51 And if I had any shot at like being a healthy, loving, capable,
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 hands-on, intentional mom.
00:10:53 --> 00:10:57 Like I couldn't be in the relationship. So I had to choose like the lesser of
00:10:57 --> 00:11:03 two evils in order to create the life I've created now. But it's not,
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 it's not like everybody's dream, you know?
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 No, no, it certainly isn't what you sign up for when you're,
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 you know, on your wedding day, can't wait five years from now,
00:11:11 --> 00:11:13 going to get divorced. It's just not how it works.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:20 I've heard other moms or women share that, you know, because you mentioned the
00:11:20 --> 00:11:24 four to five years that women talk about, you know, they take that time and it's like.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:30 They describe it as a death by a thousand cuts, you know, because women are,
00:11:30 --> 00:11:37 we're driven to hold on, to make it work and to be the caregivers and to just keep it all together.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:42 And yet when you're not getting what you need out of the relationship you know
00:11:42 --> 00:11:46 you just die slowly and you know i'm sure.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:52 You get to that point where it's like do i continue to die slowly and end up
00:11:52 --> 00:11:57 as a shell of a human being or do i just finally call it,
00:11:58 --> 00:12:03 after so much torture and be like okay what can i do now to make a better life
00:12:03 --> 00:12:08 for myself and my children yeah because i I deserve as a woman and as a human
00:12:08 --> 00:12:09 being to feel whole and happy.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:14 I don't feel, deserve to feel like a shell of a human being accepting less than
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 what I deserve by staying in this relationship.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:21 Right. It is absolutely a death by a thousand cuts. And, you know,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 as a woman, you're like, okay, well, he's not hitting me.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:29 He's not cheating on me. So am I selfish for leaving? But, you know,
00:12:29 --> 00:12:34 there's so many things that can make you unhappy that have nothing to do with abuse or infidelity.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:40 And so many women don't give themselves the permission to feel that or honor
00:12:40 --> 00:12:44 that intuition that says, this is not right for you.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:48 You are in the wrong place. But we do. We do let ourselves get cut over and
00:12:48 --> 00:12:52 over and over again because the intention is to honor the vows.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:58 Create the manifest the reality that you thought would be but like sometimes
00:12:58 --> 00:13:00 that's just not possible and
00:13:00 --> 00:13:04 it hurts far more trying to force you know a round peg into a square hole,
00:13:05 --> 00:13:11 a square peg into a round hole then then the alter then the opposite yeah yeah,
00:13:12 --> 00:13:17 yeah and i i think it's just it's sad because i think we all know that there
00:13:17 --> 00:13:22 are so many women out there who for whatever reason maybe it's financially motivated maybe
00:13:23 --> 00:13:28 it's shame motivated maybe it's because of their children they're staying put
00:13:28 --> 00:13:30 in these oh i know relationships,
00:13:30 --> 00:13:36 that finance piece is huge i know women in my own circle who have stayed as
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 long as they have because financially it's just the better option men as well like you know,
00:13:41 --> 00:13:44 we're both our names are on the business we can't get divorced or we didn't
00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 sign a prenup we can't get divorced and,
00:13:47 --> 00:13:52 you know we're gonna have a long tangent on why that's so much worse for the
00:13:52 --> 00:13:56 kids right and and and a lot of this goes back to i should just stay for the
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 kids and that's obviously never,
00:13:59 --> 00:14:03 the right choice in my opinion no no it's not and you know what speaking of
00:14:03 --> 00:14:07 that i'm glad you just brought the kids back into the conversation because,
00:14:08 --> 00:14:09 I'm just curious.
00:14:10 --> 00:14:15 I know you had children at the time. I know you have now stepchildren as well.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:20 Knowing what you know now, doing the work you've done now for so long,
00:14:20 --> 00:14:27 what do you wish that someone had told you about how to help your children navigate through divorce?
00:14:28 --> 00:14:33 I wish somebody would have, and I knew it logically, but I didn't,
00:14:33 --> 00:14:39 I couldn't honor the fact that after a divorce, you are not responsible for
00:14:39 --> 00:14:43 the quality of the relationship between your child or children and their other parent.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:49 And there's nothing, nothing you can do more than just supporting the relationship,
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 to make it be, you know, it's going to be what it's going to be.
00:14:55 --> 00:15:01 And I think, you know, I think I over functioned for so long in that role because
00:15:01 --> 00:15:06 I never wanted my daughter to feel the way I felt as a child in my parents' divorce.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:12 And it wasn't even necessary. And I think it was our co-parenting therapist
00:15:12 --> 00:15:13 who one day was like, hey,
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 You ever hear of the book, Codependent No More? And I was like,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 oh, I was like, wow, way to call me on my shit. I love that.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:25 Thank you. That's a needed therapist who's going to call you on your shit.
00:15:25 --> 00:15:29 I have one of those and I love her to death for it. I have three.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:36 And so anyone who says I haven't done the work, but I think that is so important
00:15:36 --> 00:15:40 because as a mom, especially, you just want to protect your kids in any which
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 way, with friends, with family members, with the world, social media,
00:15:43 --> 00:15:44 everything that they're exposed to.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:50 But you can't, you don't have control over how their relationship with their
00:15:50 --> 00:15:51 other parent is going to pan out.
00:15:51 --> 00:15:58 And I think that is, it's as scary as it is freeing, but it is a very difficult
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 thing to accept. And far too many moms learn that too late.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:06 And especially because as a mom, most of us, and I know I'm speaking for myself,
00:16:06 --> 00:16:10 Natasha, I know you're this way, my mom was this way, overdeveloped sense of responsibility.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:15 Have to be there, have to make everybody happy, have to make sure everybody's
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 content, have to fix all the issues.
00:16:18 --> 00:16:23 So naturally, you're going to want to make sure that your child's relationship
00:16:23 --> 00:16:28 with their other parent is either healthy or successful or that it exists.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:33 But God, that's such an important truth that you just highlighted.
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 I'm so glad you did because I think there are a lot of people out there who
00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 might be listening to this conversation who are like, oh, thank God,
00:16:38 --> 00:16:42 that's not my responsibility. I totally thought it was. And it's not.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:49 And I always tell people like the more energy you put into correcting or keeping.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 Your ex and the kid's relationship or connection on the straight and narrow,
00:16:54 --> 00:16:57 the less you're putting into your own connection with your children and honoring
00:16:57 --> 00:17:01 what they might be feeling or what they need from you in those moments,
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 you know, and you don't have a lot of time and energy as a single parent or
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07 as a parent who only sees their kids half the time now.
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 So it goes back to that intentionality.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13 What are your intentions for your time with your kids to make sure they're happy
00:17:13 --> 00:17:17 with their other parent or to make sure they feel safe and connected to you?
00:17:18 --> 00:17:21 That's a beautiful way to put it. I think it's a very clarifying way to put
00:17:21 --> 00:17:27 it so that people really see and understand that what you are responsible for
00:17:27 --> 00:17:33 is your little orbit, is your now little immediate family.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 And you have to be. You have to be because if all of a sudden,
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it because then all of a sudden your
00:17:39 --> 00:17:41 relationship with your kids is going to start to suffer if you're too worried
00:17:41 --> 00:17:42 about the other one. So that's powerful.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:47 Yeah and you're then it's almost like you're just right back in that dynamic
00:17:47 --> 00:17:52 of being married again where you're still a thousand percent i and i had a couple
00:17:52 --> 00:17:55 of clients this week and this was like a recurring theme natasha i'm happy you
00:17:55 --> 00:17:56 bring that up where it's like,
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 they'll say i don't even know why i got divorced like it's just like still being
00:18:01 --> 00:18:06 married and i'm like well let's let's explore that tell me more about that and it comes back to,
00:18:07 --> 00:18:13 having too much it's it's like this sense of feeling responsible for the other
00:18:13 --> 00:18:17 person when you don't really need to be, and you have this false sense of control
00:18:17 --> 00:18:18 over how things might turn out.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 And yeah, it does feel like you're still very much married to this person because
00:18:22 --> 00:18:26 now your happiness is contingent on whether they're happy or they're not mad
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 at you or they're not fighting with you or the kids are happy with their other parent.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:33 And yes, you might as well have stayed married at that point.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:39 So what point do women kind of have this aha moment where they're just like,
00:18:39 --> 00:18:44 you know what, Is there any that you've seen in your practice or whatever where
00:18:44 --> 00:18:49 they're just like, finally the light bulb goes off and they're finally able to just take a step back?
00:18:49 --> 00:18:53 And this is why therapy or working with a trained professional afterwards is
00:18:53 --> 00:18:57 so important because it usually takes someone to ask you a couple of questions,
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 to help shine that light.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:03 People can't tell you what you're doing wrong. You have to see it for yourself.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:07 And I have found that it's just a couple of questions that I'm like.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:12 You know, tell me about this or tell me a little more about how you were in
00:19:12 --> 00:19:16 the marriage, like, and just being able to draw the distinction between how
00:19:16 --> 00:19:20 I was then and how I am now and, and why I can't still be this person in this
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 part of my life, I think helps women realize.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:26 And if it's not working with a professional, you realize when you're now in
00:19:26 --> 00:19:30 a new relationship after divorce, and that relationship is failing because you're
00:19:30 --> 00:19:34 putting way more energy into your past relationship and
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 the dynamic between you and your ex and the kids and the ex,
00:19:37 --> 00:19:39 then you are into this new relationship.
00:19:39 --> 00:19:45 And this is why 70% of second marriages fail because the energy is going to the wrong place.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:47 God, that's a crazy statistic.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:52 It's huge. It's 50% of first marriages. And I think between 60 and 70,
00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 70 for second, 75 for third.
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 But I see why, you know, I'm, I'm married, I'm remarried now,
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 seven years, seven and a half years.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:06 And like, I totally get where it could have gone wrong because the stakes are
00:20:06 --> 00:20:10 much higher and There's a lot more required of you in different areas of your
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 life, and people lose sight of that.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 Yeah, absolutely. I can see how they could, and I could see how people almost
00:20:16 --> 00:20:23 get complacent in some ways, too, and maybe don't put the required amount of
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 energy into a second marriage.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:30 Not that I have any basis for saying that. It's just kind of an intuition.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 But it's also like, you know, if you're in a new marriage and you're trying
00:20:35 --> 00:20:39 to make this relationship work, but you're constantly so stressed because of
00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 what your ex is saying or doing or, you know, you're so worried all the time.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:45 Now, now you finally have alone time with this person because the kids are with
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 their other parent, but you're so hung up.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 I'm like, oh, my God, they didn't go to bed at the right time.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:54 And I'm just going to yell at my ex about this. And I'm so worried because,
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 you know, the kids are around his new partner. So I can't enjoy myself this weekend.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 And you're like emotionally imprisoned to your past forever.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 And it's not helpful for the future you're trying to create.
00:21:05 --> 00:21:11 So what do you say to your clients when they find themselves in that situation?
00:21:12 --> 00:21:18 I think it comes down to recognizing, helping a client recognize what power they actually do have.
00:21:19 --> 00:21:24 And it's not in changing what's already been done wrong with their ex because
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 we can't jump back in time, right?
00:21:26 --> 00:21:31 And it's also helping them understand why they feel this need to focus or fixate
00:21:31 --> 00:21:32 on what's happening in the other home.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:38 I'm like, granted, we are all obsessed with our kids and it's a very unnatural
00:21:38 --> 00:21:42 thing to not have control of your own children for 50% or 30% of the time, whatever it is.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:47 But it's understanding like what's behind that need and it's fear.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51 And so we often jump to worst case scenario. Okay,
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 you're terrified that the kids are going to come back and they're going to be
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 all chaotic and off their schedule because your ex refuses to put them to sleep
00:21:59 --> 00:22:05 at the same time you do or they're hopping them up on sugar and chick-fil-a and you're a holistic,
00:22:06 --> 00:22:12 crunchy mama whatever it is let's worst case scenario they come back to your house they're tired.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:17 They're hyper worst case scenario what happens and then when you put it like
00:22:17 --> 00:22:20 that it's like oh all right yeah it's going to be a little bit annoying they're
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23 going to need a data reset which by the way they're going to need that anyway
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27 because going back and forth between two homes is a lot on a child's nervous system.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 And so we just tend to like worst case scenario and walk things back.
00:22:31 --> 00:22:35 And it's a process, you know, this, this is not in one session that like somebody
00:22:35 --> 00:22:39 just decides they're not going to stress or worry or focus all their energy
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 on correcting all the wrongs of their ex.
00:22:43 --> 00:22:47 I will say that 100% of the time, clients will come to me and be like,
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 man, I was finally able to enjoy these couple of days while I didn't have the
00:22:52 --> 00:22:56 kids because I wasn't just so hyper fixated on everything that was happening in the other house.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 And I love to hear that because you deserve that.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03 You know what this makes me think of? I'm so glad we're having this conversation.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 This makes me think of something that I've been working on with my therapist
00:23:08 --> 00:23:13 now for quite a while in therapy relating to just my own story and my own lived experience.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:17 It's the concept of radical acceptance. Have you ever heard of it?
00:23:18 --> 00:23:22 My other therapist, my psychiatrist, introduced me to Kristin Neff. Mm-hmm.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:27 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And this radical acceptance of like,
00:23:28 --> 00:23:30 it literally is what it is. Yes.
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 And, you know, he said something to me once, because I'm a worrier,
00:23:34 --> 00:23:36 I'm anxious, I have anxiety.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 He was like, what if you just accepted that there is literally no other reality
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43 than the one you're living in right now? And I'm like...
00:23:45 --> 00:23:50 Okay. Well, when you put it like that, you know, but yes, yes.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 I mean, you are where you're at. There's no other reality for you.
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 So imagining a world and what you, you know, and I tell parents all the time,
00:23:58 --> 00:24:02 like, even if you two were in the same home, in a loving, healthy marriage,
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 you're not going to be able to have full control over what that person does
00:24:06 --> 00:24:08 with the kids or how the kids feel with that person.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 Like that's, that's their own cross to bear. You know, that whole concept of
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13 radical acceptance has changed everything for me.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:19 It's like react to what you can control because you can't control most of what's
00:24:19 --> 00:24:23 happening around you. So your own reactions, that's what you can control.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 That's all I was going to say. Right. And our need to control,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:27 again, is driven by fear.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:34 I think every mom's biggest fear is the other person is going to turn my kids
00:24:34 --> 00:24:39 against me or the other person, my kids are going to like the other parent more
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 because they're more fun or they're less boundaried or there's less rules.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 And so I understand because I was that person too, operating from fear.
00:24:46 --> 00:24:52 But once you realize that, like, if you keep your side of the street clean, consistent,
00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 your kids know what to expect you are safe stable staying whole healed all of
00:24:57 --> 00:24:59 those things it doesn't matter what happens in the other house.
00:25:01 --> 00:25:06 Yeah not even just the other house you know i have you know i've been with my
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 husband for seven excuse me coming up on 23 years.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:16 And we have two children 12 and 14 and you know as the kids have grown up and
00:25:16 --> 00:25:21 i was trying even just within our you know relatively good marriage,
00:25:22 --> 00:25:28 still trying to manage how his relationship was with the children you know knowing
00:25:28 --> 00:25:33 his childhood traumas seeing the gaps and things like that not wanting our children
00:25:33 --> 00:25:36 to have anything remotely to what he and i had as children,
00:25:36 --> 00:25:42 and still found myself managing that and then there was some point i think within
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 the last few years where i just was like,
00:25:45 --> 00:25:46 i can't like Go and let God.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:51 Yeah. Yep, exactly. He's going to do what he's going to do within their relationship.
00:25:51 --> 00:25:56 It is not my job as a human being and as a mother to manage that relationship.
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 How it ends up being is how it ends up being.
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00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 You know, there's something that I always find so fascinating.
00:26:53 --> 00:26:58 A couple of years ago, I went back for my master's in marriage and family therapy, went back to school.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:03 And one of my first classes, we were talking about just how siblings can have
00:27:03 --> 00:27:08 entirely different experiences in the family and, you know, sibling order and,
00:27:08 --> 00:27:09 you know, all those things.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:15 And, and I remind clients of this, that like your children's experience,
00:27:15 --> 00:27:20 it even, like I said, even if you guys were in the same intact family is going
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 to be very different with each parent.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:28 It is. And, and you have the freedom now and the opportunity to only have to
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 worry about yourself and your kids, not try and manage somebody else,
00:27:31 --> 00:27:35 not be worried all the time about what the other person is going to do or say in your presence.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:40 Like that's such a gift and I think once parents are able to reframe that and
00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 and have a different perspective on it It it changes the game big time Yeah,
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 yeah, yeah, I have to ask you.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:55 In all this work that you've done, have you come across parents who blame the
00:27:55 --> 00:27:57 children for the divorce?
00:27:57 --> 00:28:03 Parents who blame the children, not for the divorce, but there is an epidemic
00:28:03 --> 00:28:08 of personality disordered parents who can't take responsibility for why their
00:28:08 --> 00:28:10 kids might be unhappy with them.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:13 I see that day in, day out, lived it as a child myself.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:20 It is awful. And I think because my husband's a judge and he's a family court
00:28:20 --> 00:28:26 judge, and we're constantly sharing stories and hearing, he tells me what goes on in his day.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:32 The amount of children between the ages of like 11 and 14 who just want nothing
00:28:32 --> 00:28:37 to do with a parent because that parent cannot see things from their perspective,
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 cannot put the child first, does not understand that,
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 their needs are more important than their own feelings about the divorce. I mean.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:54 It's crazy, but it's so prevalent. It is. And that's actually my experience.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:57 My parents split up when I was 16.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:02 And I don't know if you're familiar with my background, but I was raised in a polygamist cult.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:07 So I actually... Ooh, you've got some stories to tell. Oh, she does.
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 My mother was the second wife, but she was the favorite wife.
00:29:12 --> 00:29:15 My parents actually did deeply love each other and fell in love.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:21 And so after 23 and a half years of marriage, my mother decided she didn't want
00:29:21 --> 00:29:27 to live polygamy anymore. And she wanted to just be them. And so they gave it
00:29:27 --> 00:29:29 a go for about six months.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:36 And what my dad came to realize was that his marriage with my mom worked because
00:29:36 --> 00:29:40 he was only with her, you know, in the beginning, only 33% of the time,
00:29:40 --> 00:29:44 because there was three wives and she left when I would, the third wife left when I was eight.
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 And then after that, it was only 50% of the time.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 And my mother is very intense. In my opinion, she's an undiagnosed narcissist,
00:29:52 --> 00:29:56 covert narcissist. And so six months of them trying to make it work.
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 And my dad's like, I can't, I literally can't do this anymore.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 And so he- You were only good in small doses. Yeah.
00:30:03 --> 00:30:09 And in those six months, I heard my parents fought more than I had in my whole life.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:15 And so finally he wrote her a letter and I had come home from school and I saw
00:30:15 --> 00:30:16 them in the backyard talking.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 And then I went to work and I came back that night and I was walking up the
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 back stairs to get a drink of water.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 And it was 1030 at night and my mom's usually in bed and I look out the back
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 window and she's sitting outside on the back deck just completely, it's dark.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:35 And I go out there and I go, mom, what are you doing out here by yourself? I said, where's dad?
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 And she turned and looked at me and she says, well, I guess you complained to
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44 your dad one too many times about me, so he left me because of you.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:51 Oh, Natasha. Yeah. And I said, I had nothing to do with how your marriage to
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54 dad went. And she said, well, you don't have to take all of the blame,
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 but you're going to take some of it.
00:30:57 --> 00:31:02 And I walked away. What not to do as a mom, I mean, I'm so sorry you had to experience that.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:07 But I'm so glad you know that that was not your fault, obviously.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:10 It's not, you know, but I carried that with me for a long time.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:11 Of course, how could you not?
00:31:11 --> 00:31:15 For a really long time. How do you not? How do you ignore something like that?
00:31:15 --> 00:31:18 I mean, it's, you know, spoken like a true narcissist, for one thing,
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23 to put the blame on someone else, let alone your child.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:34 Needless to say, I left my mom's home by October. Actually, Halloween, I left her home.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 How old were you? I was 16.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:43 Probably the best decision you ever made, huh? Mm-hmm. Yep. And I never went back.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:48 I went to my dad and I was like, because he had gone back to his first wife.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:54 And I said, Dad, please, can I? And then she left me a voicemail that night.
00:31:56 --> 00:32:02 Your mom? My mom left me a voicemail. It was some of the most horrid things
00:32:02 --> 00:32:06 that I had ever heard a mother say to their child And then my dad told me years
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 later when he went back to get his stuff,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:13 The things that he was she was continued to say to him about me,
00:32:15 --> 00:32:18 I was like, he didn't tell me for years, but he said, daughter,
00:32:18 --> 00:32:21 because I knew that it would crush you to hear these things that I,
00:32:21 --> 00:32:23 he said, I have never in my life
00:32:23 --> 00:32:26 thought a mother could say those kinds of things about their daughter.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:33 But if she really is a narcissist, right? We know that so much of that are projections
00:32:33 --> 00:32:38 and, you know, narcissists tell on themselves by blaming others.
00:32:38 --> 00:32:42 Right. But that's really, really painful. I mean, I'm sure you and I can go
00:32:42 --> 00:32:48 swap stories for hours on my childhood was a hot mess. I mean,
00:32:48 --> 00:32:53 I was estranged from my father by the time I was in seventh grade, I want to say.
00:32:53 --> 00:32:59 And my parents' divorce started when I was eight and was finalizing when I was
00:32:59 --> 00:33:02 graduating high school at almost 18. Oh my gosh.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:08 It was my entire lived experience as a child from like when I was able to remember,
00:33:08 --> 00:33:12 first have memories to the day I was graduating high school.
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 I'll never forget. My mom actually ended up remarrying her divorce attorney
00:33:15 --> 00:33:19 in a very sex in the city type moment. Oh my God.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:23 He became my dad, like love of my life. He passed away a couple of years after
00:33:23 --> 00:33:28 that. But I remember like my graduation day, it was like finally happening.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:30 Divorce is finally being finalized.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:37 Um so that's a marathon that was a long divorce oh my lord long a lot of litigation
00:33:37 --> 00:33:40 a lot of hell a lot of i mean it was.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:47 I say i say to my mom now like i when i have one minor hiccup with my co-parent
00:33:47 --> 00:33:52 or i see a little pain in my daughter because of the divorce i say to my mom like i don't know how
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 you like i don't know how you function she was an immigrant in this country
00:33:57 --> 00:33:59 She all of her family was back in south america,
00:34:00 --> 00:34:02 My dad left her with nothing was dragging her through the mud.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:06 Yes She met somebody new who was wonderful and all of that but My brother and
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 I were in so much pain and being so emotionally abused and.
00:34:10 --> 00:34:14 I don't know how, but my mom is my rock and my warrior.
00:34:15 --> 00:34:19 And like your dad didn't tell you things for so many years, my mom didn't tell
00:34:19 --> 00:34:22 me things for so many years. And I'm so grateful for that because it was painful
00:34:22 --> 00:34:27 enough just to carry my existence with what I did know at the time. It was not fun.
00:34:28 --> 00:34:32 It's interesting that we've all three of us have had that experience of having
00:34:32 --> 00:34:38 our parents not share something that would be super traumatic.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:40 I mean, with my own story, my dad died.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:43 When I was 10 and I was told it was a heart attack because my mother wanted
00:34:43 --> 00:34:48 to protect me. And she did protect me from that truth for 35 years until it
00:34:48 --> 00:34:53 finally came out. So we've all kind of been in that situation where our parents
00:34:53 --> 00:34:55 just did not want to inflict more pain.
00:34:56 --> 00:35:00 And do you feel grateful that you didn't know or were you angry that you didn't know the truth?
00:35:00 --> 00:35:04 I get asked that question a lot. I answer it the same way. My father was my,
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 person in the world. I was an only child.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:13 Knowing that he had died absolutely shattered me, completely shattered me.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:19 I don't know if I would have made it if I had known that my father had taken his own life.
00:35:19 --> 00:35:24 I don't know if I could have lived with that knowledge. And I am nothing but,
00:35:24 --> 00:35:28 eternally grateful to my mom for shielding me from that.
00:35:28 --> 00:35:34 I think that, and it was 1978, so there were no resources. There was no support.
00:35:34 --> 00:35:39 There was no infrastructure to help a wife deal with that, let alone a child.
00:35:40 --> 00:35:44 And so she just went. She raw-dogged it and just went. Literally.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:48 Completely on instincts alone and said, nope, can't, can't do this.
00:35:48 --> 00:35:51 Can't add to it. And it was definitely the right decision in my opinion.
00:35:52 --> 00:35:55 I think that soundbite is going to be very important because I also,
00:35:56 --> 00:35:59 I get asked a lot, how much is too much to share with the kids?
00:35:59 --> 00:36:02 Or why can't I tell the kids that their dad cheated? And I'm like,
00:36:03 --> 00:36:06 do you sit down and talk to your kids about your best friend's sex life?
00:36:07 --> 00:36:10 No, it would be really inappropriate, right?
00:36:10 --> 00:36:15 And so people get very mad at me when I say that less is more and what you tell
00:36:15 --> 00:36:17 your kids and what truths you share,
00:36:18 --> 00:36:22 but I think it's so important that as a parent you use discernment right and
00:36:22 --> 00:36:27 like what why do why do they need to know is it because my ego would feel better
00:36:27 --> 00:36:31 if they knew I wasn't the one to blame or because this piece of,
00:36:31 --> 00:36:35 information would add value to their life and you're so lucky you're new even
00:36:35 --> 00:36:39 without the resources you know and social media telling you how to live your life,
00:36:40 --> 00:36:42 she knew and she protected you from something that.
00:36:43 --> 00:36:47 No doubt changed the course of your life. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:51 And Natasha's too, her dad too, waiting to share that kind of information.
00:36:51 --> 00:36:57 I mean, that's catastrophic to a child, let alone a daughter from her mother.
00:36:58 --> 00:37:03 I mean, that erodes your sense of self in a minute and a half. I mean, yeah.
00:37:04 --> 00:37:09 And I, you know, it's hard enough for you to be 10 and have to live with the
00:37:09 --> 00:37:13 fact that your father was gone, regardless of how he died, right?
00:37:13 --> 00:37:18 Like, that was enough. That was more than enough for your little 10-year-old self to be able to carry.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:24 So, you know, my mom actually, like two weeks ago, gave me a tidbit about my
00:37:24 --> 00:37:26 childhood that I didn't know. And I'm like, really?
00:37:27 --> 00:37:32 What? Like, there were so many things. It's like peeling back an onion, you know? Yeah.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 I have toyed with the idea of EMDR or, you know,
00:37:37 --> 00:37:41 doing sorts of things to try and uncover maybe repressed trauma and i'm like
00:37:41 --> 00:37:45 you know what i think i know enough like i don't i don't i don't need to go there.
00:37:46 --> 00:37:51 Yeah this is not affecting your day-to-day no yeah it's like what do we really
00:37:51 --> 00:37:53 want to go fishing in the dark here we,
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 don't need to do that no yeah you don't know what you're gonna more than enough
00:37:57 --> 00:38:03 i need to work on right i mean i recommend emdr but i only use that on,
00:38:04 --> 00:38:09 stuff that is actively like affecting me you know day to day or week to week,
00:38:10 --> 00:38:14 no i know i've heard amazing things i'm not knocking it i'm just not there yet,
00:38:15 --> 00:38:21 right no i agree in fact my oldest brother clane he was the first of my five
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23 brothers to die by suicide,
00:38:24 --> 00:38:29 he the first i have five brothers that have died by suicide.
00:38:31 --> 00:38:34 Yeah. Take a minute with that one. Mm-hmm.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:41 Yeah. I'm so sorry. Thank you. I mean, under your name where it says survivor, like,
00:38:43 --> 00:38:47 You are the definition of. Mm-hmm. Wow. I get told that.
00:38:47 --> 00:38:51 Somebody actually, I think, told me I need to change it to warrior. You should.
00:38:52 --> 00:38:57 Yeah. You should. But he had just struggled his whole life. Yeah.
00:38:59 --> 00:39:02 And nobody knew why, just really, really struggled.
00:39:02 --> 00:39:08 And then a psychiatrist, he was 20, in his late 20s, went digging around in his brain,
00:39:09 --> 00:39:17 and unlocked the memories of him being violently, violently sodomized by my uncles as a little boy.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:23 That is so horrendous. And within 18 months, he was dead. The cat's making a
00:39:23 --> 00:39:25 ruckus. I'm sorry. Oh, that's okay. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about
00:39:25 --> 00:39:28 it. I'm lucky my dog's not snoring so loud that we can't hear each other.
00:39:30 --> 00:39:35 Good talk you know this you know that mabel does this yeah michelle that's that's
00:39:35 --> 00:39:36 that's literally nothing compared
00:39:36 --> 00:39:39 to i have a little one-eyed rescue puppy mabel she's about yay big,
00:39:40 --> 00:39:47 she snores in ways that people can't believe so if she is she a frenchie no
00:39:47 --> 00:39:53 she's we don't even know she's a rescue from mississippi and so she just i don't
00:39:53 --> 00:39:54 know she we think she's part,
00:39:55 --> 00:39:59 Russell's Griffin, part pug, part terrier.
00:39:59 --> 00:40:02 And she just, when she goes into that sleepy place, she just,
00:40:02 --> 00:40:07 I mean, my husband works upstairs and she has a little dog bed up there and
00:40:07 --> 00:40:08 I have a dog bed and a couch in my office here.
00:40:09 --> 00:40:13 And we have to kick her out of each other's offices. When he's doing a call
00:40:13 --> 00:40:17 and he's presenting, he'll have people stop him and say, is that your dog?
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20 What is happening? She's just, I don't know.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 It's just every living creature in this house needs to be on me at all times.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:27 Yeah, no, I know that. I know that. Humans and animals.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:29 But I want to go back to Natasha for a second.
00:40:30 --> 00:40:36 I just want to honor your experience because we all sit here with our stories
00:40:36 --> 00:40:39 and we're like, you know, everything is subjective.
00:40:39 --> 00:40:45 Like my situation was horrible for me at the time. And then I hear what other
00:40:45 --> 00:40:49 people go through and it just, I'm like, who am I? Who am I?
00:40:49 --> 00:40:54 Like, I really, I bow to you because I can't imagine the pain that you carry.
00:40:55 --> 00:40:56 Lisa can attest to,
00:40:57 --> 00:41:01 the weight of what it is for me to carry that. And you've only heard one small
00:41:01 --> 00:41:07 part of her story. There's an awful, awful lot more that she's dealt with.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:11 And so I, you know, I want to speak to the women out there that I don't know
00:41:11 --> 00:41:15 what it's like to divorce somebody, but you deserve to be happy and whole.
00:41:15 --> 00:41:19 And I fight for that actively every single day.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:24 And I am very fortunate that I have a loving husband that stands by me and he
00:41:24 --> 00:41:30 supports me and he catches me when I fall, picks up the pieces when I'm having an oppressive episode.
00:41:31 --> 00:41:35 And so you deserve to have someone like that show up for you in your life.
00:41:36 --> 00:41:38 And don't accept anything less than that.
00:41:40 --> 00:41:44 That truth. That is the truth. You know, I feel like there's,
00:41:44 --> 00:41:49 and tell me if I'm right or wrong here so much pressure now to,
00:41:50 --> 00:41:53 have like if you're divorcing to have like a picture perfect divorce like be
00:41:53 --> 00:41:56 friends and co-parent beautifully and,
00:41:56 --> 00:42:00 family photos together everybody gets along and all that but i don't think that
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03 that's everybody's reality for sure nor should it be no no,
00:42:04 --> 00:42:09 do you think that people have created unrealistic expectations about yeah what
00:42:09 --> 00:42:12 good good divorce air quotes is supposed to look like,
00:42:12 --> 00:42:16 it all started with glenneth paltrow and chris martin and their unconscious
00:42:16 --> 00:42:21 uncoupling, which is so not a possibility for the majority of people who divorce.
00:42:21 --> 00:42:25 And, you know, right away, people are like, oh, you know, they're so amicable.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:28 But like, I guess if I'm not amicable, there's something wrong with me,
00:42:28 --> 00:42:31 or I'm not a good enough mom, or I'm not a good enough co-parent.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:41 But, you know, there are so many kids who have a harder time with their divorced parents trying to,
00:42:41 --> 00:42:45 play something that they're not than they do with their parents being separate
00:42:45 --> 00:42:47 totally and living separate lives because,
00:42:48 --> 00:42:51 and this can kind of go deep, but...
00:42:52 --> 00:42:58 The need to have that closeness with a co-parent is most often not rooted in
00:42:58 --> 00:43:03 what's best for the kids. It's what makes me feel safe, what makes me feel like
00:43:03 --> 00:43:06 a better person, what looks good to the outside world.
00:43:06 --> 00:43:11 If you really stop and ask, is this the best thing for my child who has now
00:43:11 --> 00:43:13 had to adjust to life in two homes,
00:43:14 --> 00:43:18 had to compartmentalize everything they knew to be one person in one home,
00:43:18 --> 00:43:22 one person in another, even in the best circumstances, your child does feel split in two.
00:43:23 --> 00:43:26 And now every couple of weeks, we're going to meet for ice cream.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:29 And now I don't know if I should go sit next to mommy, because usually when
00:43:29 --> 00:43:32 mommy and I have ice cream, we sit here, or should I sit next to daddy,
00:43:32 --> 00:43:34 but then is mommy going to feel weird?
00:43:34 --> 00:43:39 Like it puts so much pressure on children of divorce who were already forced
00:43:39 --> 00:43:41 to get accustomed to a whole new life.
00:43:42 --> 00:43:46 And I wish more people looked at it from that perspective.
00:43:46 --> 00:43:50 It's wonderful if you guys can be amicable and friendly and not fight with each
00:43:50 --> 00:43:56 other during transition days or exchanges, or you can flexibly change a schedule
00:43:56 --> 00:43:57 to accommodate each other's needs.
00:43:57 --> 00:44:02 But like, more than that, I don't think is necessary in order to be a great co-parent.
00:44:02 --> 00:44:07 That's good to hear. I feel like that's really powerful and important and realistic,
00:44:07 --> 00:44:10 which is what we want this conversation to be.
00:44:11 --> 00:44:18 And as we kind of wrap up our time together we always ask people a version of
00:44:18 --> 00:44:21 this question so i'm going to ask you this question.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:26 The idea is that we're all surviving something, and we kind of shared with you
00:44:26 --> 00:44:29 at the top of the episode, I think before we started recording,
00:44:29 --> 00:44:31 that's kind of what this podcast has become.
00:44:31 --> 00:44:35 We're all surviving something. So when you look at everything that you've lived
00:44:35 --> 00:44:39 through, the divorce, motherhood, kind of starting over, redefining yourself,
00:44:39 --> 00:44:43 rebuilding this identity, helping other people, creating moms,
00:44:43 --> 00:44:45 moving on, this whole culture and community,
00:44:46 --> 00:44:48 what do you think you were really surviving?
00:44:49 --> 00:44:52 My childhood. The person I became because of my childhood.
00:44:52 --> 00:44:59 Like, my divorce and co-parenting and not getting along with my ex pales in
00:44:59 --> 00:45:04 comparison to the pain I carried into adulthood from my childhood.
00:45:04 --> 00:45:06 And that's the thing that I'll always be healing from.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:11 And that's why I do the work that I do to help divorce and parents realize that
00:45:11 --> 00:45:15 the impact you have on your kids during that time stays with them forever.
00:45:15 --> 00:45:19 As my own therapist once said, divorce is an adult decision,
00:45:19 --> 00:45:22 but a child's entire lived experience and they don't get a second child.
00:45:23 --> 00:45:25 And so for me, that would be it.
00:45:26 --> 00:45:32 That was one of the most powerful answers to that question that I think I've
00:45:32 --> 00:45:35 received. So thank you for that. And I think that that's...
00:45:36 --> 00:45:41 Going to be so powerful too for women who are either going through it or contemplating it to hear.
00:45:42 --> 00:45:47 Michelle Dempsey-Multeck, I can't even tell you how happy I am that we made
00:45:47 --> 00:45:52 this happen, that you came on the pod, that you and I finally got to meet after
00:45:52 --> 00:45:55 seven years of knowing each other and communicating over DMs.
00:45:56 --> 00:46:01 I think your story is such an important reminder that moving on is not about
00:46:01 --> 00:46:04 kind of pretending that something didn't hurt. You have fully acknowledged,
00:46:05 --> 00:46:08 like Full Monty acknowledged that it hurts, that there's guilt involved,
00:46:08 --> 00:46:10 that there's grief involved.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:16 It's about letting what happened become part of your story without letting it
00:46:16 --> 00:46:20 dictate the end of your story, which I think is beautiful. That's just how I'm interpreting it.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:23 And I think that there are going to be a lot of women out there,
00:46:24 --> 00:46:26 and men too, who need to hear that.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:34 So do us a favor and tell everybody where they can find your book, Moms Moving On.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:37 I know your podcast is still out there.
00:46:37 --> 00:46:41 Are you still recording your podcast at this point? Retired a year ago.
00:46:41 --> 00:46:46 I retired a year ago after six years of weekly podcast content.
00:46:46 --> 00:46:51 I needed a break, but it still lives on. I mean, people are still listening to it. It's everywhere.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:56 You can listen to podcasts. My book is everywhere you can buy books from Target
00:46:56 --> 00:47:00 to Barnes & Noble to Amazon. available on paperback, hardcover, audio, Kindle.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:06 And I am very accessible on social media at the Michelle Dempsey on Instagram
00:47:06 --> 00:47:09 and by email michelle at michelledempsey.com.
00:47:10 --> 00:47:13 And you are super responsive. I can promise you that she will get right back
00:47:13 --> 00:47:16 to you because she gets right back to everybody. I try.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:21 We just love and appreciate everything that you've done and built this community
00:47:22 --> 00:47:26 and built this support system for, in particular, moms, for women,
00:47:27 --> 00:47:33 who are navigating this thing that so many people are navigating and have no idea how to navigate it.
00:47:33 --> 00:47:38 So thank you just for what you're doing and for taking your own experience and
00:47:38 --> 00:47:43 recycling it in a way that it benefits so many other people. You are extraordinary.
00:47:43 --> 00:47:48 I just love you to death. I think you're wonderful and appreciate you being here.
00:47:48 --> 00:47:53 So thank you for sharing what surviving divorce looks like and feels like.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:57 And we'll have obviously all of your contact info, how to get your book everything
00:47:57 --> 00:47:58 in the show notes as always,
00:47:59 --> 00:48:03 but reach out to michelle she is out there i've actually sent some people your
00:48:03 --> 00:48:08 way in the past and i know that you've been very very helpful to them so thank
00:48:08 --> 00:48:11 you so much for being here we appreciate you,
00:48:11 --> 00:48:16 and to everybody listening thanks for being here we we just we love it when you're,
00:48:17 --> 00:48:20 here to listen to these conversations because they they mean something a little
00:48:20 --> 00:48:23 something to everybody and we'll be back next week to have another one.
00:48:23 --> 00:48:25 In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:48:27 --> 00:48:31 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:48:31 --> 00:48:35 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone, and you're definitely
00:48:35 --> 00:48:39 not broken. Healing takes time, and it looks different for everyone.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 The fact that you're still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:48:45 --> 00:48:48 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:48:48 --> 00:48:50 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:48:51 --> 00:48:55 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:48:56 --> 00:48:58 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:48:59 --> 00:49:00 help is always out there.
00:49:00 --> 00:49:05 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:49:05 --> 00:49:08 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:49:08 --> 00:49:12 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:49:13 --> 00:49:16 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:49:16 --> 00:49:20 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:49:20 --> 00:49:24 Until then, take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.