*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this episode, Lisa's lifelong friend Caleb Powers recounts losing his father in the 1983 sinking of the SS Marine Electric—a tragedy he narrowly escaped—how that loss fueled teenage drinking and drug use, led to rehab, and eventually became the catalyst for decades of sobriety, healing, and meaning. Lisa and Natasha reflect on friendship, witnessing grief, and the power of sharing stories to help others feel less alone.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Takeaways
- Sometimes the hardest words are the simplest
- Grief doesn’t just hurt—it can halt development
- Coping isn’t always healthy—but it can be survival
- One honest voice can change everything
- You don’t need a crowd—just one witness
- Friendships can pause—but real ones don’t disappear
- Perspective shifts after profound loss
- Pain can become purpose
- You’re not alone—even when it feels like you are
- Healing includes finding meaning—not just relief
- Grief evolves—but it doesn’t disappear
- There is another side to the pain
- Surviving is not just about getting through—it’s about becoming
Chapters
00:00 – Opening + Context
01:30 – The Question He Couldn’t Ask
02:30 – When Grief Stops Everything
04:30 – Hitting Bottom + Intervention
07:30 – The Friend Who Saved His Life
09:30 – Recovery Begins
10:30 – Lisa’s Perspective as a Witness
13:00 – Friendship Through Grief + Time
17:00 – “Who Was Your Witness?”
18:30 – Angels in the Darkness
20:00 – Meaning-Making + Perspective
23:30 – Turning Pain into Purpose
25:00 – Why Sharing Matters
27:00 – The Weight of It All
28:30 – A Different Relationship with Grief
29:30 – Finding Peace After Loss
32:30 – Healing Through Knowing
34:30 – Full Circle Reflection
35:45 – 40+ Years of Sobriety + Growth
36:00 – “It Will Make Sense Someday”
38:30 – The Bigger Picture
39:00 – Final Question: What Would You Say to Your Dad?
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:12 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:31 So, last week, we talked to one of my oldest and dearest friends,
00:00:31 --> 00:00:36 Caleb Powers, about losing his father aboard the marine electric coal ship that
00:00:36 --> 00:00:41 sank off the coast of Virginia in February of 1983 when we were in,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:43 I think it was the 8th or 9th grade,
00:00:43 --> 00:00:49 and about the reality that Caleb was actually supposed to be on that boat.
00:00:50 --> 00:00:54 And you and I were together that night when you found out about your dad because
00:00:54 --> 00:01:00 you got the call at home and you immediately came to my house just to be with
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 somebody who understood what it was like to not have a dad.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:09 And you were with me finding out when your dad was determined to not have survived
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 and ultimately he died at sea.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:16 Surviving the whole event, surviving the trauma of losing your dad and surviving
00:01:16 --> 00:01:21 almost having been on the boat too is only a part of your story.
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 That's just one part of your survival.
00:01:25 --> 00:01:28 And today we're just going to talk about what came after that,
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 about kind of how your grief blew up.
00:01:31 --> 00:01:34 We talked a little bit at the end of last episode about that.
00:01:34 --> 00:01:40 And now we just want to dig in a little more about those hardest moments of
00:01:40 --> 00:01:43 growing up without your dad and And moments people might not realize,
00:01:44 --> 00:01:48 you know, people think the funeral is the hard part, but it's what comes after that.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:52 I actually do have a question that I was wondering what was going on with you
00:01:52 --> 00:01:57 or was there anything that you maybe didn't say back then that you feel like
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 you can say now about what you experienced?
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 What is it with you these questions?
00:02:02 --> 00:02:06 God, like help me.
00:02:08 --> 00:02:11 But that's that's what I wasn't able to say. Help me.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:16 That's you know help I couldn't I didn't know how to say that,
00:02:17 --> 00:02:23 I didn't know anything. I mean, everything was, everything ended.
00:02:24 --> 00:02:28 Did you feel like you grew up all of a sudden because this terrible loss just
00:02:28 --> 00:02:33 was like, all of a sudden, I'm a man now because I have to be?
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 No, like everything stopped.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:44 Like my emotional development, my maturity, I just pulled the plug out of the wall.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:54 And and like i said last time i i gave up caring i i just withdrew completely from everything,
00:02:56 --> 00:02:59 and just you know i've heard the expression before
00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 but like crawled into a bottle and i and i you know and i drank and drugged
00:03:03 --> 00:03:08 with a vengeance i mean it was on from the get-go so as a 15 year old boy you
00:03:08 --> 00:03:13 were drinking at heavily at 15 yeah and then and then it was like that wasn't
00:03:13 --> 00:03:18 enough So then it was drugs and it was, you know.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:22 I mean, people, you know, people ask me now, like, so what was your, what was your favorite?
00:03:23 --> 00:03:27 And I was like, it was more, you know, my, my drug of choice was more.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:31 And, and that was, you know, that was how I dealt with it.
00:03:31 --> 00:03:36 And it really isn't dealing with it. But like I said, the ability to numb out,
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 the ability to alter my state saved my life.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 Because I know that I was not, like, I couldn't, there was nothing,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:49 like, I couldn't go another week without something to help me cope.
00:03:49 --> 00:03:55 And, you know, so I turned into, you know, I turned into, I turned into a monster.
00:03:55 --> 00:04:00 I mean, I really do think about, like, that time in my life as, like, I was a monster.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:05 It was, it just got darker and darker and darker.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:09 For how many years? I, I, you know, it was about another, so my,
00:04:09 --> 00:04:18 my drinking and drug use began shortly before I lost my dad and then it just blew up.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:23 And by the time I was a senior in high school, I was getting sent off to rehab.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 You know, it was like, I don't know, three or four years.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:31 And at that point, I was a bad dude.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:38 And my mother at the time was the health education coordinator for the public
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 school system that I was a student in.
00:04:41 --> 00:04:45 So she would set the curriculum for drug and alcohol awareness.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:50 And her son was in rehab. Well, no.
00:04:50 --> 00:04:57 So here's the twist in the story. there was a big sort of, you know,
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 county-wide drug operation.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:07 And, you know, in like five of the surrounding towns, big-time drug dealers got taken out.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:13 And my name was associated with one of these guys.
00:05:13 --> 00:05:20 And the police came to my mother and said, look, we know what your son's up
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 to. and if you don't do something about it we're going to have to.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:33 And off I went. So that your mom putting you in rehab at that point? Well, it was the choice.
00:05:33 --> 00:05:37 It was the, you know, she, she knew that I, and it wasn't, you know,
00:05:37 --> 00:05:40 it wasn't like my gray, like I didn't really go to school.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:46 Yeah. And so they gave me, my mom and my stepfather gave me the ultimatum and
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 they said, look, you either got to go away or you got to get out of the house.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:54 And this is, this is a good part of this is, this is a cool part of the story
00:05:54 --> 00:05:59 that night. and, you know, it all went down, I went to our buddy Mike's house.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:04 And Mike was one of my, you know, he's one of my, he was one of my party buddies.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:08 And, and I said to him, bro, can you believe this?
00:06:08 --> 00:06:13 Like they're giving me an ultimatum and I gotta, you know, I gotta go to this
00:06:13 --> 00:06:18 place or I gotta get out of the house and, you know, screw that.
00:06:18 --> 00:06:23 I'm going to do my own thing. And he said to me, buddy, you've got to go away.
00:06:23 --> 00:06:27 You're not going to last a month on your own. He knew.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:31 He knew that I wasn't going to last long out there.
00:06:32 --> 00:06:39 And maybe 15, 16 years ago, I was in Washington, D.C. for work. And I met up with Mike.
00:06:39 --> 00:06:42 And we were going to grab, I mean, he's still a dear friend of mine.
00:06:42 --> 00:06:45 And we were going to go grab lunch or something. And we were standing on the
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 sidewalk waiting for the light to change.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 And he was like standing next to me and i said you know something you know like
00:06:52 --> 00:06:56 guys do they don't actually have eye contact they kind of stare off into the
00:06:56 --> 00:07:01 distance when it's time to get close and i was like you know something he said
00:07:01 --> 00:07:02 what i said you probably don't remember this.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 But you saved my life and he's like what what are you talking about still no
00:07:07 --> 00:07:13 eye contact staring off into space and i said you don't remember this but you
00:07:13 --> 00:07:17 saved my life the night that i came to you and said i had to make a choice you
00:07:17 --> 00:07:23 were the only person who could have said to me you got to go away and and i actually.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 Took that to heart. So off I went.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:33 I mean, literally in the March of my senior year, I was 17 years old.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:37 It was at the time when interventions were becoming more popular,
00:07:37 --> 00:07:42 like identifying at-risk youth and intervene and that kind of stuff.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 And so everybody was like, we got one.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:50 We got one. It's Caleb. He's the guinea pig for the intervention.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 And so they sent me off to a hospital.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:57 I was there for 30 days. I turned 18 in that miserable place.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01 And it was there that, like, I recognized that.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:11 My life was at stake. And that if I didn't live a drug and alcohol-free life, I was going to die.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:18 And so that's when my non-drinking lifestyle and recovery, and that's when it began.
00:08:18 --> 00:08:22 And so that was,
00:08:22 --> 00:08:27 I kind of think of, I kind of think like that's when this story really begins,
00:08:27 --> 00:08:32 honestly and you know before we get into like too much of that what i was what
00:08:32 --> 00:08:38 i was curious to know was looking back on it now sort of the arc of this story
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 lisa what has it meant to you to witness.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:47 My experience well that's a big question you know i i have such a unique vantage
00:08:47 --> 00:08:53 point of your experience because you know we were teenage kids together i was
00:08:53 --> 00:08:59 there the night you got the call about your dad and the boat going down. You ran to my house.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:04 If people listen to the previous episode, you'll know all the details about
00:09:04 --> 00:09:08 what it was like when you learned and showed up at my door hysterical,
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 not knowing if your dad was alive or dead and everything that happened after that.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:16 And it was profound. It was profound for me on so many levels.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:22 I think probably you and I have not talked about this ever, I don't think.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:28 But you mentioned in the last episode how you were drawn to come to me and my
00:09:28 --> 00:09:33 house because it was, you know, it was a place of love and you trusted my mom and me.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:37 And that was why you felt like you needed to be there. But also because I didn't have a dad.
00:09:37 --> 00:09:44 Well, I didn't know anybody else who had lost a parent until you lost your dad right in front of me.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 And there was a real feeling of helplessness there.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:53 There was a really profound feeling of helplessness, not really even knowing
00:09:53 --> 00:09:58 enough about what grief meant to me in my own life.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:01 I mean, we were like 14 years old. I was only a handful of years out from losing
00:10:01 --> 00:10:04 my dad and believing that my dad had died of a heart attack,
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 which, of course, was not the real story, took his life.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:13 But when we were kids, that's, you know, my dad's death was very different than
00:10:13 --> 00:10:17 what you experienced with your dad. So I didn't know what to do for you.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 I didn't know what to say to you.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 I didn't know how to help you. And I,
00:10:22 --> 00:10:27 It was scary and it was sad and it was really, really hard because you and I
00:10:27 --> 00:10:31 were so, so close and you said it yourself.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:34 You just let go completely.
00:10:34 --> 00:10:38 You just, I don't mean let go of me, but you just, you lost yourself.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:44 And you and I, one thing that's worth mentioning is that our relationship has
00:10:44 --> 00:10:48 kind of ebbed and flowed over the years where we were so, so, so close.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 And we were both going to go off to prep school and then ended up at the high
00:10:51 --> 00:10:56 school in our hometown and, you know, stayed close there. And then you went
00:10:56 --> 00:10:57 off. You went into rehab.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:02 And, you know, then everybody else was, you know, going off to college.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 And there was a period of time where you and I were not as connected.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 And it was not because we didn't care for each other. There was no falling out.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:12 There was nothing like that. It was just life took you into a place and life
00:11:12 --> 00:11:13 took me in a different direction.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:19 And do you remember, this is such a random thing, but it seems to make sense in this moment.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:24 I was driving on Sturro Drive in Boston, because we're here in Boston. Oh, yeah.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:29 And I had not seen you in years. You were living in the North End of Boston.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 And you were walking in the most random spot that no one ever walks in on the
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 side of this. If you lived here, you'd be home now.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:43 It was that part of Sturro Drive. It was a billboard just before you get onto the expressway.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 And it was this very famous billboard. If you lived here, you'd be home now.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:47 And you were standing under this billboard.
00:11:47 --> 00:11:51 It was so random. And I remember pulling my car over in the most unsafe way
00:11:51 --> 00:11:52 possible and jumping out.
00:11:52 --> 00:11:57 And we saw each other. We hadn't seen each other in years. And it was this incredible reunion.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 And, you know, we made sure that we stayed in contact after that.
00:12:01 --> 00:12:05 And so there was a blip of your life, like, where I wasn't part of it.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:10 And that was, you know, it's hard to me to come back now, and you and I have
00:12:10 --> 00:12:14 talked about this, where I just feel badly that we weren't in each other's lives
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 as we were, you know, like,
00:12:16 --> 00:12:21 end of high school, early college, and that phase when you were really in it.
00:12:21 --> 00:12:25 You were really in the thick of it. I wish that I had been there because it
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 was hard to know what you had gone through when I was there.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:33 And it was horrible knowing what you went through when we weren't as connected. Yeah, I think like.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:39 All of those, all of those wonderful friendships, including ours,
00:12:39 --> 00:12:43 all took a hit when, you know, when I went dark.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:47 Yeah. And it wasn't, it wasn't anything that you did. It wasn't anything that anybody did.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:54 It was just like, I, like I started to surround myself with people who were dark and you weren't.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 And, you know, that's, you know, that's part of what happens.
00:12:57 --> 00:13:01 And, but I'm trying to think about like sort of this, this iteration.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:06 What was the thing, like, how did we end, you know, reconnecting for this last,
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 this most recent chapter?
00:13:09 --> 00:13:12 You know what? I think it might've been our friend Greg's father's funeral.
00:13:12 --> 00:13:16 I think it was before that though. Was it a reunion?
00:13:16 --> 00:13:19 Was it maybe a school reunion or something?
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 I've been trying to think about that too. And I, I don't
00:13:22 --> 00:13:25 remember because we would kind of pop in and out of each other's lives
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 and kind of check in a little bit and and this
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 time it stayed like it like it
00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 like it stuck and yeah i
00:13:34 --> 00:13:38 don't remember i don't remember what it was but anyway it's
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 it's all good now and that's normal for friendships you
00:13:41 --> 00:13:44 know yeah even the you know best of friends is which you guys
00:13:44 --> 00:13:47 clearly were i have a
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 friendship like that you know that i've i met her when i was 18
00:13:50 --> 00:13:53 and we've you know come in and
00:13:53 --> 00:13:55 out of each other's lives we would go a year or two
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 without speaking and and yet i've loved her
00:13:58 --> 00:14:02 so dearly and i think that's just a natural ebb and flow of life okay i think
00:14:02 --> 00:14:06 that's fair there's a lot of those but even that friendship with mike like when
00:14:06 --> 00:14:11 we i mean we just talked last week and it might have been six months before
00:14:11 --> 00:14:18 we had you know the last time we had talked And there's that thing about those friendships,
00:14:18 --> 00:14:22 man, that they just—they have—.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:27 Something you know like that shared experience
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 that just the depth of that connection is really
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 really unusual and there's not you know
00:14:32 --> 00:14:36 i might have five of those people in
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 my life well there's something interesting i think that happens when
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 you have a somebody that's near and
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 dear to you that shows up for you in
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 a way especially when you're experiencing a tremendous amount of
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51 grief for loss and they witness
00:14:51 --> 00:14:55 it and they're part of it and they just it just
00:14:55 --> 00:14:58 seals this connection that you have with this person
00:14:58 --> 00:15:02 totally and it's it
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 stays and you know i've having lost so many
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 family members not all my friendships survived who's
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 the who's your who's your witness i would i would
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 have to say my dearest friend jane
00:15:14 --> 00:15:20 again i met her when i was 18 and my aunt jill they were the they were the two
00:15:20 --> 00:15:25 that stood out for me the most and were there in ways that i just kind of express
00:15:25 --> 00:15:32 my gratitude for i think the you know now looking back on this and how it shaped my life,
00:15:33 --> 00:15:37 i believe i don't know how you guys feel about this but like i believe in angels.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:44 And I don't know if Jane or your aunt you would consider them angels Lisa and
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 her mom were definitely angels,
00:15:47 --> 00:15:51 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman co-host of the Survivors and founder of the Help Hub
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 If you're listening right now and you're not okay,
00:15:54 --> 00:15:58 If you're feeling overwhelmed, stuck, or like you're carrying more than you
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 can handle, please know you don't have to go through it alone.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:08 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:16:08 --> 00:16:12 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 Reaching out is a great first step, and you owe it to yourself.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:23 Because your life matters, your story matters, and help is always just three numbers away.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:29 There was a guy, I worked at a bakery. Eat your heart out, bakery.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:37 Yeah, I would go in after hours and clean. And there was a night baker there who was like an ex-Navy.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:41 He was on destroyers in the Second World War.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:46 And he would come in and bake and we would, he was an angel.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:51 He was an angel because he knew exactly what happened, when it happened.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 And you know he he was
00:16:54 --> 00:16:57 a navy dude like he he knew what that life
00:16:57 --> 00:17:05 was like and and and he said something to me that i'll never forget and again
00:17:05 --> 00:17:11 the guy was an angel he said because he knew that i was in a lot of pain and
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16 it was when that was when i was really starting to drift and he said Caleb,
00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 There's two kinds of, there's two kinds of lives.
00:17:21 --> 00:17:27 There's the life where all of the tough stuff happens in the beginning and the
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 good stuff comes at the end.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:33 And then there's the one where the good stuff happens in the beginning and the
00:17:33 --> 00:17:34 tough stuff comes at the end.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:39 And he said, you're living the first one. And, again, as a 15-year-old,
00:17:39 --> 00:17:46 like, I still remember, like, that was something that somewhere inside of me
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 gave me some sort of hope.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:54 And I have to say, Joel, you were right. You were right. Because this really
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 is, like, the good stuff comes at the end.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02 Well, you've worked at it. You have worked at it for decades.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:09 Yeah, that's true. I've definitely worked my ass off to kind of,
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 yeah, whatever, to be where I am today.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:20 So you are, I mean, from my perspective, you're a really unique kind of survivor.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24 I feel like every one of us, the three of us, has a uniqueness to our own story.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:29 But your story of surviving is not just about losing your dad.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:33 You know that you were supposed to be there on that boat with him.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:38 You know that ultimately, ironically, your dad was the one responsible for saving
00:18:38 --> 00:18:43 your life because he canceled the trip you were supposed to take with him.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:51 What would you say being this kind of survivor taught you about your own life? Whoa.
00:18:52 --> 00:18:57 About how to even survive, maybe. What does it mean to you? What does it look like?
00:18:57 --> 00:19:01 So I think that, you know, one of the things is that you're,
00:19:01 --> 00:19:02 how do I say this, like you,
00:19:03 --> 00:19:09 Oh, life is hard means something very different to me than it does to the average person.
00:19:09 --> 00:19:11 Like, oh, I'm going through a tough time.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:18 It's kind of like when tough shit shows up in my life, it's like,
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 pfft. Yeah. You know. So it's perspective.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:32 100%. Like the sort of the, this is tough meter is, yeah, like I've got a very
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34 different perspective on what's hard.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:40 I agree. Yeah. When people tell me about stuff that they are going through that
00:19:40 --> 00:19:42 they would consider like the hardest stuff, I'm just like.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:46 It's kind of like trauma snob.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:54 Yeah, I like that. I like that. I'm a trauma snob. Your book is this thick and yours is a paper.
00:19:54 --> 00:19:58 Right. Right. Like, oh, you think that's hot? Right.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:02 I know. And it sounds so awful to say. It is. I mean, when you experience the
00:20:02 --> 00:20:07 most awful shit and a lot of it and people are just dealing with,
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 like, what you would consider the average day,
00:20:09 --> 00:20:14 you're just like, oh, it's like first world problems versus third world problems.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:16 Right. For real. You know?
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 That's what it boiled down to. But like, thank God for us because,
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 you know, you know, I, I know kids that are 15 years old that lost their dads
00:20:25 --> 00:20:29 like today, you know, within the last few years.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 And I was going to the movies with one of them and my son.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 And I mean, you know, and there's been other, there's been other like moments
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 in my life where I've, I've put my hand on a kid's shoulder and said,
00:20:45 --> 00:20:51 Hey, but you're not alone. And I think that that is...
00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 Rather than what I experienced as a kid, and I think maybe what you did,
00:20:57 --> 00:21:01 Lisa, to say, like, there was so, like, people just didn't know what to do.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 And I got a message for, like, kids that are going through tough stuff.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:07 And it's, you're not alone.
00:21:07 --> 00:21:13 You're not alone. And that, I think, is, you know, that's one of the blessings that this has brought.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:19 You know, that I've been able to experience is like, you know,
00:21:19 --> 00:21:23 holding on to other people that have been through really hard things and being
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 like, it's going to make sense someday. Well, you know what?
00:21:26 --> 00:21:29 I'm glad you said that. And I'm glad you said it that way.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:37 Because for me, that was the catalyst for me even starting to share in the first place.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:43 I never intended to share anything about losing my dad to suicide and losing
00:21:43 --> 00:21:47 all the other people I've lost to suicide and my own personal story.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:53 And one person kind of tapped me on the shoulder and asked me to talk about it.
00:21:53 --> 00:21:59 And that just started a chain reaction because people saw themselves in some part of my own story.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:06 And people started coming to me and saying, I really appreciate you just being
00:22:06 --> 00:22:09 open and transparent because it gave me permission to do the same thing.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:10 It doesn't matter what your story is.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 It doesn't matter what you've been through, what your trauma looks like,
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 how long ago it was. Those things don't matter.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:21 It's giving people permission to share what they've been through for the benefit
00:22:21 --> 00:22:24 of not only themselves, because it's cathartic,
00:22:24 --> 00:22:28 but for the benefit of other people who can either see themselves in your story
00:22:28 --> 00:22:35 or take something from the story that's powerful or helpful and utilize it in their own life.
00:22:35 --> 00:22:41 And each one of us has gone through some heavy shit and I.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:47 I just feel so unbelievably grateful at this point in time to be able to talk
00:22:47 --> 00:22:51 about it with people and have people respond in a way that says,
00:22:51 --> 00:22:53 oh, thank God, somebody's out
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 there talking about it. So I don't feel like I'm the only one out there.
00:22:55 --> 00:22:59 I mean, I feel like I feel like now it's a gift.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03 One thousand percent for me, I feel like it's a gift just to be able to have
00:23:03 --> 00:23:07 these conversations because of what it does for the people who haven't yet started
00:23:07 --> 00:23:08 to have their own, you know.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:12 But do you ever feel the weight of it? yeah like
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 does it ever just get to be too much yeah sure yeah
00:23:15 --> 00:23:23 it gets overwhelming definitely yeah in a weird way like i actually i appreciate
00:23:23 --> 00:23:30 that in a way in a weird way it it it brings i don't know like i like it's not
00:23:30 --> 00:23:34 like this isn't like i don't i don't wake up in the morning and think,
00:23:34 --> 00:23:40 geez, I hope I get blasted with some, you know, inconsolable grief today or
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43 have some, you know, something difficult.
00:23:43 --> 00:23:50 So I don't, it's not like I'm looking forward to it, but when I do feel that weight, it reminds me.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:56 I just, like, part of it is, like, I reflect on the, like, man, I've come a long way.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:01 Wow. Like, the weight of this is not, like, I have that perspective of,
00:24:02 --> 00:24:03 like, this too shall pass.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:07 And I don't know, like, about, well, you and I have talked about this,
00:24:08 --> 00:24:13 Lisa, is, you know, how our relationships with our dads have evolved over time,
00:24:13 --> 00:24:15 even though they've been for decades. Yes.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 Yeah. We can still continue to grow those relationships. Yeah.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:24 And I left out one interesting, you mentioned it, I think, at one point,
00:24:24 --> 00:24:28 but because of what happened with the Marine Electric and the Congressional,
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 the National Transportation Safety Board and the investigation and the testimony
00:24:33 --> 00:24:37 of the three survivors in front of Congress and all of that stuff,
00:24:37 --> 00:24:44 like I learned that there was a guy on a life ring with my dad.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:49 And after the ship had capsized and like these guys all went into the water,
00:24:49 --> 00:24:55 it's February, it's 30 something degrees out and it's like 20 foot swell.
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 And these guys all go into the water in their street clothes.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:05 And my dad ends up on a life ring with like five other guys.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09 And my dad's holding a tankerman's light in his hand. This is,
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 you know, this is in the testimony. This isn't an article that was in Yankee magazine.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:18 I mean, it's like all over the place is the story about because one of the guys
00:25:18 --> 00:25:23 in the life ring lived and there's a part in this, you know, in this.
00:25:24 --> 00:25:29 You know, middle of the night, freezing cold, and they're on the life ring and
00:25:29 --> 00:25:34 they're counting one, two, three, and they just keep going around.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 They're trying to talk to each other. They're trying to stay alive,
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 but, you know, hypothermia, it's bad. It's really bad.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:46 And, you know, all of a sudden, one, three, like number two was not there anymore.
00:25:47 --> 00:25:51 And they didn't realize it? No. And so number two had actually drifted away.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:57 And then testimony from this guy, he's like, I realized that the chief,
00:25:57 --> 00:26:00 my dad, wasn't shining his light in the air anymore.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:06 And I whacked him on the back and I was like, you know, dick, dick.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:14 And he floated away. And I grabbed the light and, you know, used that to signal
00:26:14 --> 00:26:20 to, you know, and he held on. And like that guy was the last guy to see my dad alive.
00:26:21 --> 00:26:26 And three years ago, I had lunch with that guy. I remember that day.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:31 I called you right after. And through like, again, a wild set of events.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:36 Again, like, I mean, this is so far out of my mind.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:41 And all of a sudden I met a dude in the Merchant Marine and he had a mass maritime hat on.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:45 And I was like, hey, you know, you ever hear of the Marine Electric?
00:26:45 --> 00:26:46 And he's like, of course.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 And he's like, more importantly, like, how do you know about the Marine Electric?
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 And I said, well, my dad was the chief on that boat. And he's like,
00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 and then as it turns out, he said, I don't know if you remember any of the survivors,
00:26:58 --> 00:27:03 but Gene Kelly, like, we know that guy. He lives down in Attleboro.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:10 And so I actually met the guy that was the last guy to see my dad alive.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:14 And there were two things that came out of that that were important to me.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 Number one, my dad was with...
00:27:18 --> 00:27:22 Like his buddies, his co-workers. He wasn't, he didn't die alone.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 And then number two was, it was peaceful.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:34 As peaceful as, like, that whole experience could be, it was very, it was peaceful.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 That guy Gene, you know, told me, told me all about that night.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:44 What a gift that was. Such a gift. Such a gift. To know that my dad was at peace
00:27:44 --> 00:27:50 and he was with his boys and like it was very peaceful.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:57 You know, you asked me a few minutes ago what it was like for me since we were
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 kids when I lived with you through this whole story.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:05 And obviously for so much of your adult life too.
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 And you talked about how much work you've done over the years.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:17 What it's been like for me, especially in the last decade or so of you and I being so close,
00:28:17 --> 00:28:23 it has been remarkable to me to watch you, not just as my friend,
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 one of my oldest and dearest friends, but as someone who I love.
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28 You stop saying oldest? Oh, stop it.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:32 Thanks. There's got to be a better way to say that. One of my dearest,
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 say it that way, dearest friends,
00:28:35 --> 00:28:39 watching you come into your own,
00:28:40 --> 00:28:47 watching you find yourself, watching you expose the best parts of yourself and
00:28:47 --> 00:28:55 become this beautiful man who loves his family and has been sober for over 40
00:28:55 --> 00:28:59 years because of that love of himself and his family.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:06 And who has worked so hard to understand his loss and his life and what...
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 Living, knowing that you were supposed to be on that boat, all the things that
00:29:12 --> 00:29:17 you've had to navigate, watching you do that as an adult man with such grace
00:29:17 --> 00:29:20 and intention is such a privilege for me.
00:29:20 --> 00:29:24 And I'm just so, I've never told you, and it's really hard for me right now
00:29:24 --> 00:29:29 to not get emotional because of what this story and what you mean to me,
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 but I'm so proud of you, Caleb.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:36 I'm just really proud of you. And your dad would be so proud of the man that
00:29:36 --> 00:29:41 you are to be able to come here like this, never having shared any of this publicly,
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 and to come here with us and gifting us the story.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:49 So I'm just, I, no need to say thank you. It's just, it's what's on my mind
00:29:49 --> 00:29:50 and it's what's in my heart.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 And, you know, you asked the question of what's it been like for me?
00:29:54 --> 00:29:59 Well, it's been such a beautiful experience watching you flesh out the best
00:29:59 --> 00:30:05 of you and be able to stand here now and talk about all of this for the benefit
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 of other people, to feel less alone.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 And I know you struggled with that loneliness for so much of your life.
00:30:11 --> 00:30:19 And now you can give someone else hope that they don't have to be alone either.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:24 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of The Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:30:24 --> 00:30:29 If you're listening right now and you're not okay, If you're feeling overwhelmed,
00:30:29 --> 00:30:33 stuck, or like you're carrying more than you can handle, please know you don't
00:30:33 --> 00:30:34 have to go through it alone.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:42 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:49 Reaching out is a brave first step, and you owe it to yourself.
00:30:50 --> 00:30:57 Because your life matters, your story matters, and help is always just three numbers away. you.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:04 Thank you for that. It's how I feel. Do you have any peace now with it,
00:31:04 --> 00:31:05 especially since you met Gene?
00:31:06 --> 00:31:09 I've got peace with all of it, honestly.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:16 And I just know that there's a reason for all of it.
00:31:17 --> 00:31:24 And it's like such a goofy cliche, but it's one of those things that if I— And
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 people might have said the same thing to me,
00:31:26 --> 00:31:35 but I promise you, if you're going through it and you're feeling the weight
00:31:35 --> 00:31:39 of that, it will make sense. It will make sense.
00:31:40 --> 00:31:47 And there will be a beautiful other side to whatever it is.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:52 And sometimes all you can do is just hold on.
00:31:52 --> 00:31:55 I've been there you know we've all been
00:31:55 --> 00:31:59 there many many times and you know
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 there's the the there's another there's a there's a
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 there's an other side to all of this stuff we we
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 get to the other side and you get to see
00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 you get to see why and you get to see
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 how you know the the like the
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 mystery of your you know your dad's suicide becoming
00:32:16 --> 00:32:20 real to you and how that completely
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 changed the trajectory of your life
00:32:23 --> 00:32:26 and like we're here
00:32:26 --> 00:32:34 we're here because of that like your dad gave you that gift so that we could
00:32:34 --> 00:32:43 be together to share our stories with other people and ultimately try and have an impact on them and.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:50 My dad, you know, my dad saved my life and my dad gave me everything in that moment.
00:32:51 --> 00:32:55 And I'm here telling that story because of him.
00:32:56 --> 00:32:59 And it's, you know, it's pretty crazy.
00:32:59 --> 00:33:05 Like when you think about, when you really think about how all the pieces kind of fit together.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:09 I want to ask you something. And you and I have a joke.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:13 We've always had this joke over the years. No matter what we're doing,
00:33:13 --> 00:33:17 whether we're like grabbing a bite to eat or we're just hanging out,
00:33:17 --> 00:33:22 going for a walk, having coffee, whatever it is, you and I cannot be in the
00:33:22 --> 00:33:23 same room without crying to each other.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:30 We just, something happens, something is said, we start to reminisce about something
00:33:30 --> 00:33:33 and you start or I start or we both start crying.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 So it's going to be very unlikely that I'm going to ask you this question and
00:33:38 --> 00:33:39 you're not going to get emotional.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:46 I know, you're just going to have to Look, you can choose to not answer it But
00:33:46 --> 00:33:50 I am going to ask you a question I'm preparing you that it might make you emotional Are you ready for it?
00:33:51 --> 00:33:58 Sure Okay As we wrap up If you knew that your dad could hear this conversation
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 right now What would you want your dad to know right now?
00:34:01 --> 00:34:07 Anything Could be about him Could be about you Could be about anything that's
00:34:07 --> 00:34:11 on your heart What would you tell him? There's just so much.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:16 I mean, there's so much that... I think there's... Man, I just cycled through
00:34:16 --> 00:34:20 like a dozen different things that I would say to him, and I think...
00:34:22 --> 00:34:28 I think it would be, man, I don't even know if anybody's ever asked me that question.
00:34:29 --> 00:34:34 It's not a fair question, because there's a lifetime of stuff that I would want to say to my dad.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:39 I know. I know. There's a lifetime of stuff that I would want him to know,
00:34:39 --> 00:34:43 and I would want him to know that, like, I'm okay.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:51 I made it. I miss you. Thank you. Yeah, like, but I think it's I miss you. Mm-hmm.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:58 God, I'd miss you. I wished I'd met him. Yeah. Is there a part of your dad that you see in yourself?
00:34:58 --> 00:35:01 Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's a bunch.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:08 There's a bunch. So my uncle, my mother's brother, knew my dad.
00:35:09 --> 00:35:13 And there was a time when, you know, he would tell me about,
00:35:14 --> 00:35:15 like, stories about my dad.
00:35:15 --> 00:35:18 And he said, you know, there's one thing about your dad that really,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:21 like, bugged a lot of people.
00:35:21 --> 00:35:24 And like if you didn't know him like he
00:35:24 --> 00:35:27 came across as a little bit like he has that he had
00:35:27 --> 00:35:29 like a very dry sense of humor so he would
00:35:29 --> 00:35:34 say stuff to people that like if you didn't know him it would really offend
00:35:34 --> 00:35:40 you and like and like i that's me like i say stuff all the time that people
00:35:40 --> 00:35:49 are like that's but it's not but it's not it's just it's just this sort of dry sarcastic And he goes,
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51 and he goes, and my uncle said like, and it really,
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 you know, you really would dislike him if you didn't know him.
00:35:55 --> 00:36:02 And so there's that. There's definitely like a, like a cool under pressure,
00:36:02 --> 00:36:09 you know, with my kids and my wife, like when stuff goes sideways with stitches,
00:36:09 --> 00:36:17 you know, accidents with kids and just like stuff, like when stuff goes really sideways.
00:36:18 --> 00:36:20 Super cool like there were times when i was a
00:36:20 --> 00:36:23 kid where i would get hurt and my dad was just super cool
00:36:23 --> 00:36:27 like just just dialed in there's that
00:36:27 --> 00:36:30 there's like a real passion for cooking
00:36:30 --> 00:36:37 my dad like he was he loved to cook and and he used to make like you know ginger
00:36:37 --> 00:36:43 beer and you know these homemade things and like you know i make my own beef
00:36:43 --> 00:36:48 jerky and like there's definitely my dad a love of the outdoors and.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:53 Yeah, there's so much. But like I said, my dad had his own demons.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:56 There was no question about it. Yeah. I appreciate you asking that.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 That's pretty cool to think about that stuff.
00:37:00 --> 00:37:05 You know, for me, sharing that night that everything went down with your dad
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 when the ship was lost and you coming to my house,
00:37:09 --> 00:37:13 it's really one of the reasons when I look back over my life,
00:37:13 --> 00:37:14 that was definitely one of the
00:37:14 --> 00:37:21 reasons that I feel like I understand so deeply how grief shapes us all.
00:37:21 --> 00:37:27 Because until that point, the only loss of a parent that I understood was my own.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:32 You all of a sudden were the only other person in the world who I knew who didn't have a parent.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:39 And so that really shifted my perspective in some pretty wild ways.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:44 But I just want to say thank you for just for being here,
00:37:45 --> 00:37:49 for trusting us with this story, for helping people understand what it means
00:37:49 --> 00:37:55 to survive the life that you almost didn't have, which is one of the parts of
00:37:55 --> 00:37:56 your story that makes it so unique.
00:37:56 --> 00:38:02 And that there is a way to find hope and to keep moving forward,
00:38:03 --> 00:38:09 even if it just means kind of existing for a period of time until the momentum starts again.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:15 I just, I love you and I'm grateful for you. I love you too.
00:38:15 --> 00:38:20 And like when I said, you know, the love and the warmth that,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:26 you know, that I experienced with you and your mom, like that's, that's who you are.
00:38:27 --> 00:38:33 And you have a gift for, let's say this.
00:38:33 --> 00:38:39 Don't make me cry again. I've already done it once. Like I can show up here because of you.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:46 That is a gift. that um like there's i don't know it's it's like like the the
00:38:46 --> 00:38:51 authenticity the realness you know the way that you show up the way you show
00:38:51 --> 00:38:53 up for people in your life including me.
00:38:54 --> 00:39:00 Is is wicked special thank you and i i i don't know who else i'm going to tell
00:39:00 --> 00:39:05 this story to but like this was the first place that i that i needed to tell
00:39:05 --> 00:39:07 it and i'm so grateful that you,
00:39:08 --> 00:39:12 you know you extended the invitation and and
00:39:12 --> 00:39:15 with that we would that i was able to
00:39:15 --> 00:39:20 do this because this is like seriously cathartic there's like so much is going
00:39:20 --> 00:39:24 to come out of this i can't wait to see it's like both for me internally and
00:39:24 --> 00:39:30 just kind of when you put this stuff out there like wild stuff happens and well
00:39:30 --> 00:39:34 you and i had a long conversation about this when i asked you if you wanted to be on the pod.
00:39:35 --> 00:39:39 And I told you that it's kind of this blind leap of faith. Like you do the thing
00:39:39 --> 00:39:41 in the moment that you believe you need to do.
00:39:41 --> 00:39:49 And the universe is a funny, funny thing. It just, it reveals itself and kind of your next direction.
00:39:50 --> 00:39:55 In very unique ways. And I'm just so glad that you were willing to do this.
00:39:55 --> 00:40:02 And it is such an unbelievable honor for me to have you choose us to share the story with.
00:40:03 --> 00:40:09 Because Natasha gets it too. I appreciate the things that you said that were
00:40:09 --> 00:40:14 incredibly kind about the way you feel about me. You and I have a lifetime of history together.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:18 So quite frankly, you damn well should be saying those nice things about me, to be honest with you.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:24 But Natasha, and it's part of the reason why I gravitated to her to jump in
00:40:24 --> 00:40:32 and to do this podcast together because she has that same kind of heart and you do too.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 And when people who have hearts like these, who have been through things like
00:40:37 --> 00:40:43 this get together, I feel like that's where the goodness happens. Right on.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:48 I'm so glad we were able to do this. Thank you, Lisa and Natasha.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:50 Absolutely. It was an honor to meet you. You guys are awesome.
00:40:51 --> 00:40:53 It was an absolute pleasure.
00:40:54 --> 00:40:57 So I'm definitely going to need a minute after this one, for sure,
00:40:57 --> 00:40:59 because it brought back a lot. But it was a pleasure.
00:41:00 --> 00:41:05 But we will be back next week with another conversation, another survivor story.
00:41:05 --> 00:41:08 And in the meantime, everybody just keep doing what we're doing.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:10 Just keep surviving. And we'll see you soon.
00:41:11 --> 00:41:14 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:41:15 --> 00:41:19 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:24 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:41:24 --> 00:41:27 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:32 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:41:32 --> 00:41:34 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:41:34 --> 00:41:39 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:41:39 --> 00:41:42 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:41:42 --> 00:41:43 help is always out there.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:48 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:41:49 --> 00:41:52 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:41:52 --> 00:41:56 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:41:56 --> 00:42:00 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:42:04 --> 00:42:08 Until then, take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.