*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this episode, Lisa and Natasha explore the complex relationship between grief and joy, particularly after experiencing trauma and loss. They talk openly about the feelings of guilt that often accompany moments of happiness following a loss, and how individuals can navigate these emotions.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of allowing grief and joy to coexist, and the necessity of giving oneself permission to feel both without guilt. They also touch on the significance of honoring memories and finding ways to celebrate the lives of those lost while continuing to live fully.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
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Takeaways
- Finding joy after trauma is challenging but essential.
- Guilt often accompanies happiness after a loss.
- Grief and joy can coexist and should be allowed to do so.
- It's important to give ourselves permission to feel joy.
- The experience of grief is not linear and can fluctuate.
- Sharing memories of lost loved ones can help in healing.
- Emotional resilience is built over time and through experiences.
- It's okay to feel guilty, but don't let it dictate your happiness.
- Honoring memories can bring joy and keep loved ones alive in spirit.
- Living authentically means feeling what you feel without editing for others.
Chapters
00:00 Finding Joy After Trauma 05:57 The Complexity of Grief and Guilt 12:13 Navigating Happiness and Disloyalty 18:00 The Coexistence of Grief and Joy 24:10 Honoring Memories and Moving Forward
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:05 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:25 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:33 So this week, let's talk about something that we don't talk a lot about,
00:00:33 --> 00:00:34 or you and I haven't talked a lot about it.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:40 And I've been thinking about it a lot lately, especially because you and I both
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 come from places where we've had a lot of trauma.
00:00:43 --> 00:00:50 And it's really, really hard to find joy again when you've had a lot of grief or loss or trauma.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:55 So how can people
00:00:55 --> 00:01:00 find their joy again after all
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03 you've been trying to do is survive something traumatic
00:01:03 --> 00:01:06 have you ever noticed yourself feeling like
00:01:06 --> 00:01:12 really happy or relieved or excited and then like immediately you're guilty
00:01:12 --> 00:01:20 right behind that yeah like what what right do i have to feel happy when this
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 person is sick or that person is gone or that trauma just happened.
00:01:25 --> 00:01:29 Yeah, I have a hard time with that sometimes, I'm not going to lie. Why, though?
00:01:30 --> 00:01:34 I feel like I'm being dishonest. I think, in a lot of ways, like,
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 let's put it in the context of grief.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:43 Let's say I've lost someone, and you're in that really heavy,
00:01:43 --> 00:01:47 thick grief, which I know you've experienced probably more than anybody I know.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:53 And then all of a sudden, something good happens, or you catch yourself.
00:01:53 --> 00:01:57 You're in a moment where you just start to laugh or you just,
00:01:57 --> 00:01:59 you feel a sense of happiness.
00:01:59 --> 00:02:03 I don't know. I feel like I'm almost being disloyal to the person I lost.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:09 Like, how could I possibly be joyful again? You know what's weird for me sometimes?
00:02:09 --> 00:02:10 I feel that way about music.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:17 Okay yeah i like it takes me after i've lost someone and i've lost my fair share
00:02:17 --> 00:02:22 of people unfortunately not just the suicide but to to other to other things
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 i have a really really hard time,
00:02:26 --> 00:02:31 joyfully because music is very joyful to me in most cases i can't listen to
00:02:31 --> 00:02:37 music for a long time after any kind usually yeah i mean it's not like i go
00:02:37 --> 00:02:40 out of my way to put on sad music to meet the mood.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:45 I really don't do that. I think I just kind of like, I freeze all music for
00:02:45 --> 00:02:50 a really long time afterwards because it just doesn't feel right.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:57 To let the music that normally lifts me up do that. Does that make sense or
00:02:57 --> 00:02:57 does that sound totally ridiculous?
00:02:58 --> 00:03:06 I mean, I'm the opposite, whereas I use the music to help me move through the
00:03:06 --> 00:03:10 grief, to move through the sadness where I feel like I need to have a good cry.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:15 Or I'll be driving in the car and a song will come on and it will remind me
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 of somebody and I'll just let myself feel it.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:27 And so i use music in a way to process my feelings and it's it's super beneficial to me.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:32 But yeah that's interesting though that we have a very opposite experience of
00:03:32 --> 00:03:36 that yeah i mean it's not like music doesn't make me feel better i mean ultimately
00:03:36 --> 00:03:42 eventually i find my way back to it right always and and it's always cathartic
00:03:42 --> 00:03:45 and it's always helpful but i don't know in those immediate,
00:03:45 --> 00:03:50 in those immediate days or weeks after I've lost someone who's really close
00:03:50 --> 00:03:51 to me, really important to me,
00:03:51 --> 00:03:55 it just doesn't feel authentic to let myself,
00:03:55 --> 00:04:01 for instance, like be in the car and listen to my playlist and listen to something
00:04:01 --> 00:04:07 that would normally naturally just like really fire me up and get me in a good mood or excited.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:10 I don't know. It just, that's what I mean when i say that
00:04:10 --> 00:04:16 yeah i guess it's it's it just hits funny yeah it's it's funny and it doesn't
00:04:16 --> 00:04:21 seem like i should be doing that there's a feeling of like disloyalty to that
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 person i get that you know you
00:04:24 --> 00:04:29 like you said before if you laugh or or something like that for me it's.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:34 I'll just be going about my day-to-day, and then something will trigger a memory
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 of somebody. And that's when it rails me.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:45 And then I had this just a few weeks ago at work, where somebody's voice at
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 work sounded like my brother Brandon.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:49 Oh, yeah. I remember when that happened to you.
00:04:50 --> 00:04:57 Yeah. And it completely, as a new employee at my job, I didn't have the time
00:04:57 --> 00:05:02 off to just leave. So I had to just sit there and power through for the rest of the day.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:08 But having to show up for work and what people probably experience is when it
00:05:08 --> 00:05:12 just derails your whole day and you can't even think clearly.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:17 To function at your job, to function in the things that you need to do in your
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 day-to-day life when a grief kind of takes it away.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 I mean, I know that when I've been in the midst of losing somebody and having
00:05:25 --> 00:05:30 to show up for my kids like in their games and trying to find the joy in that
00:05:30 --> 00:05:34 and things like that, it takes a tremendous amount of effort. It does.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:37 It does. To be fully present in that.
00:05:37 --> 00:05:43 Yeah. It takes a ton of emotional energy, physical energy to do that.
00:05:44 --> 00:05:47 And we don't always have the reserves for that.
00:05:48 --> 00:05:57 We really don't. I think that sometimes some people, at least I've had conversations
00:05:57 --> 00:06:03 over the years with people who have said this, and I think that there's really something to this.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:08 I think that sometimes if you're feeling joyful, happy after you've lost someone,
00:06:09 --> 00:06:13 it almost feels like if you relax, if you let yourself relax into that happiness
00:06:13 --> 00:06:16 or that joy, something bad will happen.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:24 Mm-hmm. Hyperfegilance. Yep. I've heard a lot of people say that and I understand it.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:27 I mean, I don't necessarily feel that way.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:31 I feel more of a guilty feeling than a feeling of something,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:35 you know, something terrible is going to happen if I'm happy. But I do understand it.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:42 I definitely understand it. I mean, I think feeling joy after when after trauma,
00:06:42 --> 00:06:48 just it feels unsafe to a lot of people and how it's unsafe is is different
00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 for a lot of other people.
00:06:50 --> 00:07:00 Like, when did you, like, first notice that feeling happy after you lost someone was impossible?
00:07:01 --> 00:07:04 Like, was it, like, right away, earliest losses of your siblings?
00:07:04 --> 00:07:10 You just knew that it was going to be a long time until your happiness came back?
00:07:11 --> 00:07:13 Yeah, I just, I really...
00:07:14 --> 00:07:19 I mean, I've had such a broad range of experience with death.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:23 You know, there was the two brothers in the early 2000s.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 The first one I didn't know, you know, because of the age gap,
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 13-year age gap. So there wasn't a closeness there with him.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:37 But when David died and, you know, he was essentially responsible for raising
00:07:37 --> 00:07:41 one of the older kids for raising us during the summer months when our parents were gone to work.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:49 But so that his loss was much, much harder. And it took me months before I could
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 feel any kind of joy in any way, shape or form.
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 You know, and I was in my early 20s.
00:07:54 --> 00:07:56 I was 20 actually when he passed.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:04 And it's just, yeah, you feel like it's a betrayal to them. You feel like it's a betrayal to yourself.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:07 And then I just really...
00:08:08 --> 00:08:12 I went with whatever I was feeling in the moment, and I just allowed the time to pass.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:19 And when people say that time heals all wounds, it's not that it does, but you grow around it.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:23 You're still carrying a bowling ball, so to speak, with grief.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:30 You just learn to your endurance, your strength to carry that grief gets stronger.
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 And and then as you gain that
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 strength and that resilience of carrying that weight then it's like oh okay
00:08:38 --> 00:08:47 i can be happy now i can i can be i can experience joy and just realizing that
00:08:47 --> 00:08:53 i don't have to carry around this guilt i've reminded myself that a lot that
00:08:53 --> 00:08:54 i don't have to feel guilty.
00:08:55 --> 00:08:59 And in my case, because five of my brothers have died by suicide,
00:09:00 --> 00:09:02 that was the choice that they made.
00:09:02 --> 00:09:09 And I don't have to let that choice that they made determine the trajectory of my life.
00:09:10 --> 00:09:14 You're right. You're right. None of us do. In any circumstance,
00:09:14 --> 00:09:18 especially a circumstance like a suicide, which is so unique,
00:09:18 --> 00:09:19 there's so much attached to that,
00:09:19 --> 00:09:24 that people who have not experienced a suicide loss don't understand.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 It's a very different kind of grief.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:35 And it's very challenging to not have some kinds of feelings of guilt associated with it.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:43 Yeah, it's hard. And it takes years. It takes years for that guilt to subside.
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 And even then, you still get a little bit of a tinge of it here and there.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:52 But I just, because, oh, sorry, didn't mean to bump that.
00:09:52 --> 00:09:57 But because, and I, again, I never say that I've experienced more trauma than
00:09:57 --> 00:10:05 it, but I have had experiences that are vastly different and a lot heavier than most people.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:12 And if I allowed, and people ask me this all the time, where do you get your strength from?
00:10:12 --> 00:10:19 And I don't know, other than I just continue to live my life and I try to focus on the good.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:21 I try to focus on the things that I can control.
00:10:22 --> 00:10:28 And I look forward to the future. And if I'm dragging all of that with me every
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 single day, I'm just doing a disservice to myself. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:38 Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, whatever the circumstances are that you're
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 dealing with, if it's a loss, if it's a suicide, if it's a long-term illness,
00:10:41 --> 00:10:47 if it's a divorce, if it's whatever it is, a breakup,
00:10:47 --> 00:10:49 if it's a trauma in your life,
00:10:50 --> 00:10:58 you are ultimately eventually allowed to work your way to the other side.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 You're supposed to be able to work your way to the other side of that where
00:11:01 --> 00:11:07 you can have a different perspective and you can interact with the world in a different way.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 Again, you can be positive. You can be joyful.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 Again, it's just hard. I mean, it's the best. The end of the day,
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 I mean, it's just really hard.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:20 I mean, I definitely have at times apologized for that.
00:11:21 --> 00:11:26 Good moments, being joyful, feeling it out loud when I felt like,
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 oh, too soon. You know what I mean?
00:11:28 --> 00:11:33 I definitely have. And I think a lot of us, I think that's a big part of it.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:41 A lot of people will suppress, mute, pick a word, joy to protect the other people.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:47 Not only the memory of the person who you may be grieving in terms of death,
00:11:47 --> 00:11:53 but for the purposes of the other, the comfort of the other people around you.
00:11:53 --> 00:11:57 You know, we don't want to make anybody uncomfortable and you don't want to seem insensitive.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:03 So you don't want to stand out and be joyful after something bad has happened
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 too soon because a lot of people, I think a lot of people just think it's a
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 bad look, unfortunately.
00:12:09 --> 00:12:11 And see, that's, I guess that's where I'm like,
00:12:12 --> 00:12:16 where I've mentioned it. Why are we focusing on so much about what other people
00:12:16 --> 00:12:17 are thinking and feeling?
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 Because we're human and that's human nature. Why do we.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 You know, when you're on the highway and there's an accident,
00:12:26 --> 00:12:32 why do you rubberneck and everybody's, you know, everybody's driving at a standstill
00:12:32 --> 00:12:33 because they have to see the accident?
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 It's human nature, unfortunately. wish it
00:12:37 --> 00:12:40 wasn't like that but that's that's
00:12:40 --> 00:12:43 our humanity coming through it is
00:12:43 --> 00:12:47 it is i guess i've just reached a point in my life where i'm done living my
00:12:47 --> 00:12:53 life for other people and i'm gonna feel what i want to feel i'm i'm done making
00:12:53 --> 00:12:57 myself small and if i want to feel happy in the moment even if i just lost a
00:12:57 --> 00:13:02 family member a few weeks ago a few months ago i'm done living my life for other people's comfort.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:07 I'm going to feel what I'm going to feel in the moment. I could not love or
00:13:07 --> 00:13:11 appreciate or support that any more than I do. I really do.
00:13:11 --> 00:13:15 And I know that I'm a little bit older than you are.
00:13:16 --> 00:13:23 I'm only now, I mean, I'm getting close to 60s and not very close, but closer than you are.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 And it's taken me a really long time to really internalize that,
00:13:27 --> 00:13:34 to really feel like, I can't be responsible for everybody else's joy, number one.
00:13:34 --> 00:13:39 And number two, it's the whole what you can control in life versus what you can't.
00:13:39 --> 00:13:43 Like we can't control what other people say, think, do, how they react or respond.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:48 The only thing we have complete control over is ourselves and how we react and respond.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 And you're right. We can't let,
00:13:52 --> 00:13:58 what other people want or the expectations of other people dictate how we live our life.
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 Because then all of a sudden we've just given up living our life for ourselves
00:14:01 --> 00:14:07 and all of a sudden we're living it, you know, for the optics for other people. And that's bullshit.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:13 Yeah. And I mean, again, any kind of, you know, all this is very complicated.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:20 You know, and we've talked about that. But, you know, and if you are feeling
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23 guilty, it's okay. Whatever you're feeling in the moment is okay,
00:14:23 --> 00:14:30 but don't, what's the word, edit yourself for the sake of other people.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:34 Yeah. Because you think that that's how you should be responding in the moment
00:14:34 --> 00:14:35 because of something that happened.
00:14:36 --> 00:14:41 We're done with the days of editing ourselves and being what other people need us to be.
00:14:42 --> 00:14:49 And I've really learned this a lot in the last year or two, to show up as your true authentic self.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 Yes. And by doing that, you're not only healing yourself, but you're healing others.
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00:15:46 --> 00:15:52 Absolutely. I absolutely agree with that. And I think the essence of what this
00:15:52 --> 00:15:56 conversation is really about, when you really kind of drill down,
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 is that grief and joy can,
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 should, and are supposed to coexist.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:10 Like we can have all of those emotions and reactions and experiences at the same time.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13 It's not like there's a timeline that exists that says, okay,
00:16:14 --> 00:16:17 like we're all used to like the whole grief timeline.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 Everyone talks in terms of like the first year and you don't want to get involved
00:16:21 --> 00:16:25 in another relationship within a first year or you, you know,
00:16:25 --> 00:16:28 the first year's worth of holidays are always the worst.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 Yeah, there's truth to all of that. But at the end of the day,
00:16:30 --> 00:16:37 it's what works for you in your grief journey or your healing journey.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:42 And if laughing about something two weeks after someone you love just passed
00:16:42 --> 00:16:50 away is what you need to be doing, then we are all hardwired to be able to support
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 grief and joy at the same time.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:57 And we need to give ourselves permission, which I think is, that's the missing link.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01 We have to give ourselves permission to be able to do that.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:06 And that's where I think too many people fall into the whole place of feeling
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 guilty, like, oh, I can't do that now.
00:17:08 --> 00:17:12 I can't be happy. I can't possibly show that I'm joyful or happy right now.
00:17:12 --> 00:17:13 But the fact is, yeah, you can.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 Yeah, you absolutely can. And I think it's taken me a long time and a lot of
00:17:18 --> 00:17:24 different kinds of losses to realize that we aren't and shouldn't be on anybody else's timeline.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 That's right. On our own. Yeah. And I mean, they talk about grief,
00:17:29 --> 00:17:31 you know, not being linear.
00:17:32 --> 00:17:36 And what people don't understand is that it's, you can jump between,
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39 there's actually like seven stages of grief.
00:17:39 --> 00:17:41 You can jump through all of those in a singular day.
00:17:42 --> 00:17:47 It's not like, yep, acceptance, or excuse me, you know, this step,
00:17:47 --> 00:17:48 this step, check mark, check. Nope.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:53 You're going to oscillate between all of it four months and even years afterwards.
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 And it's okay. Just allow yourself to feel it and.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:04 But, you know, again, it's just carrying that with you and making it a heavy,
00:18:05 --> 00:18:10 really, I feel like you're, in a way, it becomes like a disservice to that person.
00:18:10 --> 00:18:15 And in each year that we're living beyond what they, the years that they were alive,
00:18:15 --> 00:18:19 I feel like if you are living in a joyous way or you're happy about something
00:18:19 --> 00:18:24 or you're celebrating your life, you're honoring them and living in a way that
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26 they didn't get to. Yeah.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. I believe in that for sure.
00:18:31 --> 00:18:37 I think a lot of people are out there feeling confused or pretty conflicted
00:18:37 --> 00:18:49 about happiness and when to express it when you're dealing with hardship or trauma.
00:18:49 --> 00:18:52 But there's nothing wrong with you if you're out there
00:18:52 --> 00:18:59 and you just you know if you're feeling one way or or the other just be how
00:18:59 --> 00:19:05 you feel you know grief doesn't cancel out joy joy doesn't cancel out grief
00:19:05 --> 00:19:11 they they both coexist and again we just have to give ourselves permission,
00:19:12 --> 00:19:13 to let them.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 Coexist at the same time, and that's okay. Be sad that they're gone.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 They're sad that they're not here, but also be happy that you're getting to
00:19:23 --> 00:19:25 experience this wonderful thing in this moment.
00:19:26 --> 00:19:31 Yeah. Yeah. I think the honoring part is definitely something worth amplifying
00:19:31 --> 00:19:36 because too often I think we can get caught in that trap of just feeling like
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 I'm so guilty that I get to still be here.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 I get to still do the things. I get to still be with the family.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:46 I I get to still wake up every day and live my life when the person I'm grieving doesn't.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:52 Or when the relationship I wanted, like moving on to a new relationship, you know?
00:19:54 --> 00:20:00 Feeling guilty that maybe somebody else can't. And I just think it's such a
00:20:00 --> 00:20:07 powerful learning to be able to understand that we're allowed and entitled to
00:20:07 --> 00:20:08 feel all those things at the same time.
00:20:11 --> 00:20:14 Yeah. No, I was just going to say, I don't understand. At this point in my life,
00:20:14 --> 00:20:20 I don't understand how we can't allow ourselves to feel everything all at once.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:24 Because isn't that what the human experience is?
00:20:24 --> 00:20:29 Is everything is kind of flowing through us all at once.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:33 And if we're being present, we have to accept whatever emotion we're feeling,
00:20:33 --> 00:20:36 even if it's joy right after we've had trauma.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 Yeah and and and i love
00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 that you said like being present in the moment that is
00:20:42 --> 00:20:48 the best way to allow your anything that you fit but being present and leaving
00:20:48 --> 00:20:53 this stuff back here but if you can just fully focus on being in the moment
00:20:53 --> 00:20:59 then you will find your joy and and it won't weigh down what's going on back
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 here but it's okay to set it aside,
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 and be fully present and engaged in this moment.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 Yeah, well, that's because joy is layered. All of our emotions are supposed
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 to be layered. We just don't think of it that way.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:17 We think of one at a time. We don't often think that we could be experiencing
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 so many of them simultaneously.
00:21:19 --> 00:21:25 Right. Yeah. I think for me, the biggest thing is, I know when I've lost certain
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 people at certain points in my life.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:33 That feeling of feeling okay. Like when you finally get to that point,
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 because when you're in the thick of grief, like everything is dark,
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 everything is heavy, everything hurts.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41 And then you get to a point, and it's always different with every situation.
00:21:41 --> 00:21:45 It's always different depending on every relationship that you have with a person
00:21:45 --> 00:21:50 you've lost, that you feel like you've turned a corner, right?
00:21:50 --> 00:21:59 Like you see colors again is the way that I think of it in my own brain and I know that,
00:22:00 --> 00:22:03 for a lot of people, people are afraid to get to that point because it almost
00:22:03 --> 00:22:07 feels like you're moving on without your person. Forget about the disloyalty part.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:13 Forget about the, I'm just sad that my person isn't here, the guilt part.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:21 But I think that for a lot of people, myself included, a lot of that moving back into your life,
00:22:21 --> 00:22:25 finding your way back into the joyful parts of your life can feel like you've
00:22:25 --> 00:22:31 forgotten them or you're just leaving them behind. And...
00:22:32 --> 00:22:38 It took me a long time to work away from that, to find a way to change,
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 rewire my brain, change the way I thought about that.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:46 Because I guess it's all tied to guilt and disloyalty and things like that.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:51 But, I don't know, I just, it felt like I was moving farther and farther away from the person.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:56 And that made it really hard to feel joyful at times.
00:22:57 --> 00:23:00 Now, when you say moving farther and farther away, can you expand on that a
00:23:00 --> 00:23:04 little bit more? Yeah, I guess that's more of like a timing thing.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:07 Sometimes I'll just have a thought in my head and there really is truly no way
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 that I can actually verbalize it so that other human beings know what I'm thinking.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:16 And this is probably one of those times. So I guess what I'm thinking of is
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 an accumulation of years, like actual physical time.
00:23:20 --> 00:23:24 Like I feel like I'm moving farther and farther away. Like let's take my dad, for example.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 If you don't know my story, and sometimes Natasha and I go back and forth and
00:23:27 --> 00:23:31 we'll just kind of like let people know that, you know, she has survived the
00:23:31 --> 00:23:37 suicides of five of her siblings, lost her father, was a member of the FLDS
00:23:37 --> 00:23:39 cults, was sexually abused.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:43 I mean, you and I have a lot in our backgrounds in terms of survivors.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 I've survived three suicide losses, including my father.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:53 My father I lost when I was 10, and I'm 57 now, so 47 years without my dad.
00:23:54 --> 00:24:02 I feel like I am moving like sometimes it's just so far away that the farther
00:24:02 --> 00:24:07 away I get from that physical time in my life when I was 10 when I had my dad right there,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:13 it just feels like not only am I that so many decades away from that physical
00:24:13 --> 00:24:19 time, but I've moved away from that emotional connection and that everything just feels weaker.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21 It feels blurrier.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 Does that make sense? That's what I mean.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:28 I love when you're just like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:29 And that's okay. I love that.
00:24:31 --> 00:24:36 It just, I don't want to forget the people I've lost, is what this means.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:41 And every year that goes by accumulates more time that I haven't been with them,
00:24:41 --> 00:24:46 more time that I've like physically been away from like that last hug or that last conversation.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:52 And the more time that goes by makes me feel just, I feel a little bit guilty
00:24:52 --> 00:24:58 at times because I feel like, is there memory being diluted by all the time
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 that's gone by? Does that make sense? Yes.
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04 And I do agree that as time passes, their memories do get deleted.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:10 Yeah. They do absolutely become deleted. Or not deleted. Diluted. Yeah.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:16 But for me, that's where I've learned to be okay with it, where I've had to,
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19 because yeah, I do forget sometimes that they're gone.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:26 And that's okay. Because if that's what my brain or my body has to do to be
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29 able to live the day-to-day is to forget that they're gone, then that's okay.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 How do you do that how do you forget they're going i just
00:25:34 --> 00:25:40 do i just go about my day like with like with brandon for example he's the one
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 that's been the hardest for me to process i've talked about this before because
00:25:43 --> 00:25:49 i didn't get to see his body after he had passed before he was cremated and
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 so my brain did not get to make that connection that he is gone,
00:25:54 --> 00:25:57 So he's the one that I forget that is gone the most.
00:25:58 --> 00:26:06 But, you know, I'm just going about my day and a song, a memory will flash or
00:26:06 --> 00:26:11 I'll be doing something that he enjoyed doing or that any of them enjoyed doing.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 And then I remember that they're gone.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:19 And, you know, I moved away from Utah, you know, 10 years ago.
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23 And again, there's that separation of space and time. and, you know,
00:26:24 --> 00:26:26 everybody's living their own lives and then it's like, you know,
00:26:26 --> 00:26:30 and you get used to the distance and you're not seeing them all the time.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:36 But yeah, I dare say that I do forget that they're gone most of the time.
00:26:37 --> 00:26:41 And I guess that's maybe just a survival mechanism for me. Yeah,
00:26:41 --> 00:26:42 that's what I was going to say.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:50 It's that suppression, that ability that our brain has to shut certain parts
00:26:50 --> 00:26:54 off, I guess, which is fascinating. It's fascinating to me.
00:26:55 --> 00:27:01 And it's not like a denial. You're not denying it. You're just compartmentalizing,
00:27:01 --> 00:27:02 I guess, is what it really is.
00:27:03 --> 00:27:07 Yes. Yes. Because, and I've talked about it, you know, I mentioned it before with the bowling ball.
00:27:07 --> 00:27:12 If I carried everything that I have survived with me from day to day in every
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 moment of my life, I can't function.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:22 It becomes too heavy. Yeah. And it's just, I am not honoring them.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:27 I'm not honoring myself, but I'm carrying around that weight of what I've been
00:27:27 --> 00:27:29 through, and I get to live my life.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:37 Present and as fully as I can. And I can't do that if I'm carrying around a bowling ball 24-7.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 Yeah, you're right. Or in your case, 20 of them.
00:27:41 --> 00:27:45 Yeah. A boulder, you know, right around a giant boulder on our back. Yeah.
00:27:46 --> 00:27:51 And that's just how, again, a lot of survival mechanisms have come up for me
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 because I experienced trauma from such a very young age.
00:27:54 --> 00:27:59 And so my brain has gotten very good at doing what it needs to do to help me survive from day to day.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 Yeah, I just think that's so fascinating. You know, I mean, just as like a commentary,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:11 I just think that the fact that our internal wiring has the capacity to do that,
00:28:11 --> 00:28:18 in response to so much pain and hurt, or in some cases, violence and trauma,
00:28:19 --> 00:28:20 that our brain can do that.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 It's just fascinating. That's all. Yeah.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:27 And, you know, I don't, People often have pictures of everybody that they've
00:28:27 --> 00:28:30 lost up in their homes. I don't.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:34 I have a, I do have a picture of my dad, one of my favorite pictures,
00:28:34 --> 00:28:42 it's in my bedroom, and I do look at it most nights and just, I'm grateful.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:51 But again, it's, if I, yes, I know it 100%, my brain has forced me to forget,
00:28:52 --> 00:28:54 because if I stop and think,
00:28:54 --> 00:29:01 wow, I've lost a quarter of my family, then I just, it derails me and I can't do it. Yeah.
00:29:02 --> 00:29:07 Yeah. But, I mean, you've gotten to a point in your life where you have found
00:29:07 --> 00:29:16 a healthy way to allow the memories and the love and the gratitude and the pain to coexist.
00:29:16 --> 00:29:20 Mm-hmm. And I think ultimately that's what healing is. That's what surviving
00:29:20 --> 00:29:25 is, is reaching that point. And that point and place is so different for everybody.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 Mm-hmm. You know, feeling okay doesn't mean you've forgotten,
00:29:29 --> 00:29:30 doesn't mean you've moved on.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:35 And I said, like I said a few minutes ago, sometimes the more years that add
00:29:35 --> 00:29:42 on, for me, sometimes it feels like it's an eternity since I've been with the
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44 person. And that's hard.
00:29:44 --> 00:29:48 It's hard to want to keep moving forward when it means you're moving further away from that person.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51 But then my brain shifts to a different place and says, okay,
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 wait a minute. You can think of it that way or you can also think about it.
00:29:54 --> 00:29:55 You're taking them with you.
00:29:55 --> 00:30:00 They're with you. They're living through you, or you're continuing to put them
00:30:00 --> 00:30:02 out in the world because you're talking about them, or you're doing things in
00:30:02 --> 00:30:03 their honor, or things like that.
00:30:04 --> 00:30:07 So, you know, there's a counterbalance to everything is what it all boils down to.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09 And we're allowed...
00:30:11 --> 00:30:15 We're allowed and encouraged to experience good moments without guilt.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:19 And that's taken me some time, but I've done that and I'm in that place now
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23 where I don't feel guilty and joy doesn't replace grief for me.
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 And that's an important takeaway, I think, of this conversation.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:31 If there's one most important conversation point for me here, it's that.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:36 It's that grief and joy can and should coexist.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:44 And none of us needs permission to feel good after something that's felt bad.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:50 We just have to, the only permission we have to give ourselves is that it's
00:30:50 --> 00:30:53 okay to do that. It's okay to feel both. So absolutely.
00:30:53 --> 00:31:01 Yeah, absolutely. And I one of my favorite ways to honor them is to share memories with my children.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 Me too. You know, because my kids never obviously met Clavid or Clavid.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:11 You just blended both brothers together. That's really cute. David and Cleen.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:16 So I have a lot of really good memories with David. He was very funny.
00:31:16 --> 00:31:20 And so I'll share stories about, you know, them or funny things that we did
00:31:20 --> 00:31:22 together, you know, little things.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:29 And so finding ways to honor them and to bring the joy to it and remember those
00:31:29 --> 00:31:35 funny memories or those happy memories kind of helps balance the fact that they're not here anymore.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:39 Definitely. I mean, I've always done that. No one in my family except my mom
00:31:39 --> 00:31:42 knows my dad, knew my dad.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:47 You know, my, obviously Dave, Dave came into my life after my dad was gone and
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 my kids, of course, and most of my adult friends.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54 I mean, I only have a very small handful of friends at this point from way back
00:31:54 --> 00:31:59 in the day and most everybody never knew him.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:06 And it's hard. It's definitely hard to know that they never had that connection.
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09 But I have been sharing the stories.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:13 I swear, I mean, my kids to this day are like, yes, I know.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:18 We've heard this 70 times. You don't have to tell us again.
00:32:19 --> 00:32:22 But good, that's fine. At least I know, you know, in my heart,
00:32:22 --> 00:32:25 it's like, yep, okay, good. You've got that one down. You remember that story.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:28 You remember. Or they'll tell me the story. Remember when Papa Jimmy did blah, blah, blah?
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 And that's one of the things that I love occasionally when my kids will come
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 back at me with my own memories of my own dad that they've never met.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:39 Yeah, that's great. Because they know about a story.
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 So, look, you know what? I mean, in whatever way that we can keep them with
00:32:42 --> 00:32:50 us and infuse our life with the joyful parts of our people, that's what it's
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 all about, right? Absolutely. Yep.
00:32:54 --> 00:32:58 So, thanks for listening. I like to always say thanks because,
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 you know people's time is important and when you give us a little bit of your
00:33:02 --> 00:33:08 time it's powerful to us when you listen to what we have to say so we'll be
00:33:08 --> 00:33:12 back next week to talk about something a little different grieving the life
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 that you thought that you would have but didn't,
00:33:16 --> 00:33:20 and that's a tricky one so we'll come back next week we'll talk about it until
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23 then keep surviving have a good one.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:32 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:37 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:33:37 --> 00:33:41 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:46 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:33:46 --> 00:33:47 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:33:47 --> 00:33:52 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:33:53 --> 00:33:55 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:33:56 --> 00:33:57 help is always out there.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:02 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:05 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:34:09 --> 00:34:13 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:34:13 --> 00:34:17 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:34:17 --> 00:34:21 Until then, take care of yourself and your people, and keep surviving.