*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
This conversation delves into the complexities of parenting while grieving, exploring personal experiences of loss and the impact on family dynamics. Lisa & Natasha share their stories of navigating grief, the importance of vulnerability, and how to teach children about emotions and loss. They emphasize the cyclical nature of grief and the necessity of allowing children to witness their parents' struggles, fostering compassion and understanding.
In this conversation, they explore the complexities of grief, family dynamics, and parenting. They reflect on personal experiences with loss, the importance of emotional expression, and the impact of generational patterns on parenting styles. The discussion emphasizes the significance of unconditional love and the necessity of being real with children, especially during difficult times. They also touch on the upcoming conversation about life in the FLDS community, highlighting the emotional weight of sharing personal stories.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Takeaways
- Parenting is challenging even on the best days.
- Grief adds an overwhelming layer of stress to parenting.
- Moms often bear the brunt of emotional labor in families.
- Grief can be cyclical and affect parents long after a loss.
- It's important to allow children to see their parents' emotions.
- Vulnerability can teach children compassion and understanding.
- The impact of grief can change family dynamics significantly.
- Talking about mental health is crucial for families.
- Modeling emotional honesty helps children navigate their own feelings.
- Grief can create a sense of disconnection from reality. It's okay to cry and express emotions.
- Unconditional love is vital in parenting.
- Breaking generational patterns can empower children.
- Grief can coexist with joy and meaningful relationships.
- Presence is more important than performance in parenting.
- Children need to see their parents as human.
- Showing vulnerability teaches resilience to children.
- Parenting through grief requires self-compassion.
- Children are witnesses, not caretakers of parental grief.
- Life is hard, but love and kindness can guide us.
Chapters
00:00 Navigating Parenting and Grief 03:09 The Weight of Grief on Parenting 05:55 Personal Stories of Loss and Grief 09:04 The Impact of Grief on Family Dynamics 12:04 Teaching Children About Grief 15:09 The Role of Vulnerability in Parenting 18:01 Breaking the Cycle of Silence Around Grief 24:27 Reflections on Grief and Family Dynamics 30:27 Breaking Generational Patterns in Parenting 35:34 Navigating Grief While Parenting 39:49 Upcoming Conversations on Life in the FLDS
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:31 Okay so we said we were going to talk about parenting because you and i have
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 some decent experience in parenting
00:00:34 --> 00:00:40 yeah we also are going to talk about parenting with grief because,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:49 that's a shit show when you're trying to parent when you're grieving and we
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 have lots of experience on both sides of that.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:56 So, because I'm thinking about parenting, like I'm laughing right now to myself
00:00:56 --> 00:01:01 because I'm thinking about parenting like on the best possible day when everything's
00:01:01 --> 00:01:05 clicking and everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing and you're
00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 feeling good and you're feeling like you're in control,
00:01:08 --> 00:01:11 and it's still a disaster, right?
00:01:12 --> 00:01:15 Mm-hmm. Like, I mean- It's like sunshine rainbows and unicorn farts.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, you think about like,
00:01:20 --> 00:01:26 Even when everything is going really, really well, it's still such an unbelievable weight.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:31 And then you all of a sudden layer something on top of it, like grief.
00:01:31 --> 00:01:35 And now you're doing all of those hard things and you're in 20 different directions,
00:01:35 --> 00:01:39 dealing with 30 different problems at a time.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:44 And now you're grieving. And that levels it up to a whole different universe
00:01:44 --> 00:01:46 of stress and challenge.
00:01:47 --> 00:01:52 So if you're a parent, I would say if you're a parent and you're grieving anybody,
00:01:53 --> 00:01:57 it doesn't have to be someone you just lost. It could just be someone maybe
00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 you've lost a while ago, but we all know grief is cyclical. It's just still going to affect you.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:08 This is a conversation I feel like the parents who are really just trying to
00:02:08 --> 00:02:14 do their best to feel in control when they're feeling completely shattered inside.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 Because that's what we have to do is, if you're a parent, especially I feel
00:02:17 --> 00:02:21 like if you're a mom, and I'm not saying anything against dads being devoted
00:02:21 --> 00:02:26 and loyal and loving, I'm talking about moms, that we take on a lot.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:30 And I don't think anybody anywhere is going to dispute that moms take on a lot,
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 especially stay-at-home moms. And...
00:02:34 --> 00:02:38 You know, when you have to put on that brave face, that mask,
00:02:38 --> 00:02:40 that's hard. You've done it.
00:02:41 --> 00:02:45 I've done it. You're still kind of doing it because you're grieving one of your brothers.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:49 Do you remember, your kids are younger than my kids, so mine are in their 20s,
00:02:50 --> 00:02:54 and they're out in the world living on their own. Your kids are younger, still in their teens.
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57 And you've had a lot of consecutive losses.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:03 And one really recently. Your brother Monroe passed away, was it March or May?
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 March of this year, yeah. Well, I guess last year, yeah. We're in a new year.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 Yes, we have to get used to saying 2026.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 Do you remember, and this might be a weird question, but I'm curious.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:21 Do you remember the first time that you realized that parenting was not going
00:03:21 --> 00:03:24 to stop because you were grieving for somebody?
00:03:24 --> 00:03:27 And it might not have been with your most recent brother, but in general,
00:03:27 --> 00:03:34 because I know you've had a lot of loss. Yeah, so I had two brothers pass in the early 2000s.
00:03:35 --> 00:03:38 I was in my teens, so obviously I wasn't a mother yet.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:44 But I have found that grieving since becoming a mother, so I've,
00:03:45 --> 00:03:48 you know, again, I apologize if this is repeating previous episodes,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:56 but I lost five brothers to suicides 2002, 2005, and then 22 with Corey.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 Lost my dad to cancer and then five months
00:04:00 --> 00:04:04 later lost my another brother so four brothers to suicide and
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 in that time where it was just so many losses all in a row I
00:04:07 --> 00:04:13 couldn't breathe I absolutely could not breathe and and losing somebody to suicide
00:04:13 --> 00:04:21 is a whole other different level yes it is and it was you know losing them like
00:04:21 --> 00:04:26 now that I'm a parent and I'll tell you what and I haven't spoken about this before.
00:04:28 --> 00:04:32 The sound of my mother's screaming,
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 over Corey's body is a sound I'll never forget.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:46 And because I was a mother, that is a sound that is gut-wrenching and it brings
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 me to tears every time I think about it. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:55 Because as a mother, you put yourself in their shoes and it changed me.
00:04:56 --> 00:05:01 And I've spoken to my sister Jenny about it too and she said the same thing.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:06 It was a different experience losing them since becoming a mother because you
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 can see it from that perspective.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 And imagine losing your child.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:16 Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you say all that about perspectivism.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:23 So you and I will always be kind of circling back and reminding people who are
00:05:23 --> 00:05:28 listening about our stories because we hope that everybody listens to every
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 episode and has started at the beginning and has followed us every week and
00:05:31 --> 00:05:35 knows all of our background. But that's not reality.
00:05:35 --> 00:05:39 The reality is people pop in and pop out and different entry points for everybody.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:43 So it is important that we say that, you know, you were a member of the FLDS polygamy cult.
00:05:43 --> 00:05:48 You had three moms, a dad, 19 siblings, and you've, like you said,
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 lost five of your brothers to suicide.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:56 For me, I have lost three people I love to suicide, including my father.
00:05:56 --> 00:06:03 And the unique twist to my father passing away is that I was told when I was
00:06:03 --> 00:06:08 10 when he died that it was a heart attack and I discovered the truth by accident 35 years later.
00:06:08 --> 00:06:16 So I've grieved the same person as a child and then I grieved him when I found out he died by suicide,
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 when I had been married for 20 years and had teenage kids who were the same
00:06:21 --> 00:06:25 exact age that I was when I lost my father.
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 And when I think about the number
00:06:28 --> 00:06:36 one thing that hit me like a freight train to the face the day that I accidentally
00:06:36 --> 00:06:40 found out that my dad had died by suicide and I asked my mother a question that
00:06:40 --> 00:06:46 I had never asked her before about his mental health, which I never had a reason to question.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 And my mom surprised us both and gave me an honest answer and said,
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 yes, daddy did take his life.
00:06:53 --> 00:07:00 First thought that came into my mind was, oh my God, because in that second, you replay everything.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:07 I replayed everything of my childhood and all of the joy that she expressed
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 all the time and all of that. I remember my mother wasn't perfect,
00:07:10 --> 00:07:14 that she had bad days and good days, and it seems like normal mom good days and bad days.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:19 How my mother even got out of bed, not only the fact that my mother lost her
00:07:19 --> 00:07:23 husband so suddenly, they had been married 18 years, I was 10 years old, I'm an only child.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:25 My mom was working part-time at a nursing home.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:31 How in the literal hell did my mother get up out of bed and now on top of it,
00:07:31 --> 00:07:36 which I was now just finding out, oh, by the way, my dad died by suicide and not by a heart attack.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:41 And she kept that secret to herself for 35 years. And I'm not talking about
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 talked about it in therapy.
00:07:43 --> 00:07:47 I'm talking about my mother did not speak about it to a living soul.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 So the entire world believed what I believed, which is that my dad had died of a heart attack.
00:07:52 --> 00:08:01 So there's my mother shielding me from this secondary pain of his suicide, taking all that on,
00:08:01 --> 00:08:06 living every day, giving me all the support, all the love, all the attention,
00:08:07 --> 00:08:11 all the affection, and functioning every single day.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:17 And my first thought when I thought out the truth was, oh my God, how did you do it?
00:08:18 --> 00:08:25 How is it even possible to be grieving at that level and still get out of bed,
00:08:26 --> 00:08:27 let alone raise a child, go to work?
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 And oh, by the way, my grandmother came to live with us two years later.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:35 And my grandmother was not very well physically, couldn't get around.
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 So my mom was taking care of me, taking care of herself, taking care of my grandmother,
00:08:39 --> 00:08:45 went back to college as a 40-year-old woman and worked.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:50 And I don't even know when my mother grieved. If I'm being honest with you,
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 I don't even know. Have you asked her?
00:08:52 --> 00:08:55 I'm sure I have. I'm sure I have. Like at this exact moment,
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 I really can't think of that. I mean, I know when she did.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 I mean, we did a lot of crying together for sure.
00:09:02 --> 00:09:08 And it was easy to cry about like the general grief and loss and sadness that my father was gone.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 Because that was something that we both shared.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:15 I just didn't know it was below the surface for her. I just had no idea that
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18 she was grieving this whole other side.
00:09:18 --> 00:09:23 And oh my God, when I found out the truth, that it just shattered me.
00:09:23 --> 00:09:30 She just seemed so, I don't know, she seemed different to me somehow in that moment.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:36 Like, I just had such deep sadness for her that she had to hold all of that
00:09:36 --> 00:09:40 and still keep it together as a mom every day and pack my lunches and never
00:09:40 --> 00:09:44 forgot to write a note and had my friends come over every single day.
00:09:44 --> 00:09:46 My mother would walk downstairs. My friends still talk about it today.
00:09:47 --> 00:09:49 My house is the house right next door to the school.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:54 And here I am like three, four years after my father died and my mom's trying
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 to navigate raising a child alone.
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 And every single morning, my mother would go downstairs first thing.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 She would open the front door, unlock it, swing it wide open.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:06 And one by one by one by one, my close friends.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:11 I went to, I had a very small class in my school. It was a private school next door.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:15 And there were 19 kids in my class. And I think every day, at least a dozen
00:10:15 --> 00:10:16 of them came for breakfast to my house.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:21 And my mother was like, it was like an IHOP at my house or a Denny's.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:27 And my mother was just like flipping the eggs and making the bacon and feeding
00:10:27 --> 00:10:31 the kids and getting everybody back off to school on time and out the door.
00:10:31 --> 00:10:35 And the whole time she's grief stricken.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39 And if you ask any one of my friends, they'll be like, your mother is the single
00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 most joyful human being I've ever known.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 So, yeah, I do too. But it's like,
00:10:47 --> 00:10:52 And your heart breaks for her because she was doing all that while grieving.
00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 Yeah, and she was just trying to survive and trying, I mean,
00:10:56 --> 00:11:00 her, look, you're a mom, I'm a mom, we get it.
00:11:00 --> 00:11:06 I don't know about you, but I'm certain that this is true for you, too. I put my kids first.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:13 I put my kids first. Like, is that even not a thing with anybody? I put my kids first.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:17 Their happiness, their joy, and okay, there are a lot of people who might,
00:11:17 --> 00:11:22 argue that and say, you have to take care of yourself. Yeah, okay, I do.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:28 But I prioritize my kids and Dave and obviously my family before myself,
00:11:29 --> 00:11:31 right or wrong. I always do. And maybe that's just the way I'm wired.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:35 Maybe it's because I'm a mom. Who knows? Combo of both. I don't know.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:42 But I don't know. I just think about the way that grief destroys you and debilitates you.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 And when you're a parent, it's like living a different life.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 It's like you have to live an alternate reality. Did you ever feel that way?
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 Yeah, absolutely I did. So I grieved a little bit differently.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 Compound grief, when you had successive losses really close together. Mm-hmm.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:09 With Corey, I mean, I did the best I could. I got a valuable lesson from a friend
00:12:09 --> 00:12:13 because I was initially just disappearing.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:18 My husband works from home, and so he could be there for the kids.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 But I found myself just if I needed to cry or just didn't know what to do with
00:12:21 --> 00:12:25 my grief, I would just go for a drive or just disappear.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 I knew George was home or the kids were gone to school or whatever.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:37 But as I had loss after loss, I just lost myself, and I could barely take care of myself.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:44 And so I consider to be a luxury because George stepped up big time.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:50 And because I did, I basically stopped being a parent for months.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 I didn't do grocery shopping. I didn't do cooking.
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58 I spent a lot of time in bed because I couldn't exist.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:04 Because not only was I grieving the loss of my, you know, all these family members,
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 but I was grappling with my own mental health issues.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:14 And so it was, I was just trying to live, to find the will to live.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:21 And so I spent a lot of time in bed. And if I got a batch of laundry done in
00:13:21 --> 00:13:27 a week, I was happy with that. But I didn't try to hide my grief after a friend
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 of mine, after Corey died, she said, let your kids see you cry.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 Yes, yes. Don't hide it. Like, that's what our parents did and their parents before them.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:43 My mom actually told me a story once. My mom's actually lost four siblings herself.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:44 I don't think I knew that.
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 Yeah, she's lost four siblings. They were special needs children,
00:13:49 --> 00:13:54 and so I think they were between the ages of like 5 and 12. They were children.
00:13:55 --> 00:13:59 And when one passed, I can't remember which one, I think it was her sister,
00:13:59 --> 00:14:02 and she said she came down from school to go to school, and her dad was sitting
00:14:02 --> 00:14:06 there in the living room holding her sister, and she was dead.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 And he was crying, and they didn't talk about it.
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 They all just had to get up and they just had to go to school. like they
00:14:14 --> 00:14:17 had not just lost a sibling and they
00:14:17 --> 00:14:21 don't you talk to anybody don't you tell anybody and that's
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 the way it was they did not she that she
00:14:24 --> 00:14:30 said that was like one of the few times she ever saw her parents cry and it
00:14:30 --> 00:14:35 was just like a hidden thing and so I was doing that and then my friend reminded
00:14:35 --> 00:14:41 me let your children see you cry and so I did I I had a just wanted to cry and I
00:14:41 --> 00:14:44 went and I laid my head in my daughter's lap and I just cried.
00:14:44 --> 00:14:49 And she just rubbed my head and let me do it. And I think that's just showing
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 a different way of grieving for children.
00:14:51 --> 00:14:59 It teaches them compassion and that it's okay to not have to hold it all together. And...
00:15:00 --> 00:15:03 She gave me space and that taught her compassion as well.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:07 And so I just, I did the best I could.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:13 And I thank my husband immensely for showing up and being an amazing dad and
00:15:13 --> 00:15:16 allowing me to grieve in the ways that I didn't even know I needed to.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:24 Yeah, I feel like in a lot of ways, I could say the same about Dave and the way that he was.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:31 Because for me, my situation learning about my dad's suicide was a little different.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:36 So I've already shared that I was 45 years old. My kids were teenagers.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:42 I had been married for 20 years and I found out that my dad had died by suicide
00:15:42 --> 00:15:46 and that just absolutely blew me to pieces.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:51 I never saw it coming. My father was super joyful and present and loving and hardworking.
00:15:51 --> 00:15:56 I love life because of my father and my mother. I mean, mother,
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 my God, I've said this before, she's the happiest human on the planet.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:06 My father was like that too. And so to all of a sudden have to accept the reality
00:16:06 --> 00:16:13 that my father was not at all that way on the inside was just shattering, absolute shattering.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:17 So I remember that, I remember, so I was working in the school system for a long time.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 I worked in the school system for about 13 years in a lot of different ways.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 Teacher, I was a tutor, I was a coach.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:26 And I remember that when I found this out.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:31 Our girls were like tween and teen, like right on the edge of,
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 do I want to share this with them now?
00:16:33 --> 00:16:40 Is it really even appropriate now? And I was so twisted inside out over it.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:46 I spent the first six months feeling like I was definitely not really here.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 It was just going through the motions kind of thing.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:55 And because I was just trying to process it, it was so unreal to me that I couldn't
00:16:55 --> 00:16:57 accept that that was the truth.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:02 And so how do I talk about that with people when I don't even understand it?
00:17:02 --> 00:17:03 I can't even reconcile with it yet.
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 I don't know what it is. A suicide survivor? What the hell is that?
00:17:06 --> 00:17:11 I'm a what? Like, okay, my cousin passed away when I was nine.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 He had taken his life he was twice my
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 age he was not somebody that we were like super super close
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 together we were close as families very close lived a
00:17:20 --> 00:17:24 mile away but I didn't have that relationship with him so yes that was a loss
00:17:24 --> 00:17:29 but it was I mean you can't compare something like that to losing your parent
00:17:29 --> 00:17:34 right and so especially in that way and now I'm grieving him twice and I literally
00:17:34 --> 00:17:37 I'm like day one all over again, but now I'm a grown woman.
00:17:38 --> 00:17:43 So I just, I mean, I was on autopilot.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:48 You were disassociated. Yes, I was. Yeah, I do now because I know the words
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50 now, but I didn't know the words then.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:55 And I was completely dissociated. And.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:02 I felt like I was in the schools at the time. So I had little kids that I was teaching.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 And I can't go into school and be crying all over everybody.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:11 And I can't, and you've got to remember too, this was now 12, 13 years ago.
00:18:11 --> 00:18:17 So we weren't even talking as a society the way that we talk about grief now.
00:18:18 --> 00:18:23 It was just starting to shift and swing to a place where people are being more
00:18:23 --> 00:18:27 openly vulnerable and accepting that it's okay to not be okay.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:30 Like that's when that whole shift happened.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:34 So I just kept it in. And so Dave was the only one who knew.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37 My mother knew and I talked about it with her and Dave knew and he was there for me.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:42 And I've mentioned this before many, many times in different places that for
00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 those first three years, I was two distinctly different people.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:51 When I got up out of my bedroom in the morning and got my kids ready, I was mom.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:56 They would never have any idea that anything was ever on my mind or wrong or had happened.
00:18:56 --> 00:19:00 And I'd go to school and I would teach and I was with my friends and my friends had no idea.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:04 And I would come home at the end of the day and it was like a race to the finish
00:19:04 --> 00:19:06 line when my kids would go to sleep at night.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:11 And I could climb into bed with Dave and for three years, I sobbed,
00:19:11 --> 00:19:16 Natasha, I sobbed myself to sleep every single night.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:18 And I didn't want to do it like that around my mom.
00:19:18 --> 00:19:22 I mean, my mom knows about that now because she listens to everything
00:19:22 --> 00:19:26 thing that I record and write and so
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 she knows that now but at that time I
00:19:29 --> 00:19:32 knew how hard it was for my mom so I
00:19:32 --> 00:19:36 saw my mom now in a different light because I'm a mother watching my mother
00:19:36 --> 00:19:40 grieve and now my mother is watching her child not only have to grieve all over
00:19:40 --> 00:19:44 again but she sees me as I'm needing to take care of my kids with now this insane
00:19:44 --> 00:19:49 weight of having to regrieve my father's death now I'm 45 years old this happened
00:19:49 --> 00:19:51 35 years ago so we both were like.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:56 All over the place. And I didn't want to add to it by letting her know just
00:19:56 --> 00:19:57 exactly what I was going through.
00:19:57 --> 00:20:02 So I just, Dave was, Dave was there every night until we finally got to the
00:20:02 --> 00:20:07 point where I was in a place of like, okay, I have my equilibrium a little bit.
00:20:08 --> 00:20:13 And I've lived with this now for long enough in my brain that,
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 okay, now my kids are a little older.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:17 It's time to have the conversation.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:22 And they were so unbelievably loving, and they had never met my father.
00:20:23 --> 00:20:24 David's never met my father.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 They always felt like they knew him because I always kept him alive,
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 told every story I had, shared every memory I had.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:37 But they were like your kids. They were loving and kind and held that space.
00:20:37 --> 00:20:40 And it changed them. I really think it changed them.
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 And I really think that it opened up the dialogue, not only just like about
00:20:42 --> 00:20:46 mental illness and all that. That was the first time we ever talked about somebody
00:20:46 --> 00:20:47 not really being okay like that.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:52 Yeah. And they saw me cry the way your kids saw you cry. Let me tell you,
00:20:52 --> 00:20:58 if there is one way to show your kids humanity, we're the ones who model for our kids.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:02 All the good, all the bad, all the right, all the wrong. We're the ones who do that.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:10 And when they see us be human and be affected, that is one of the most teachable
00:21:10 --> 00:21:14 moments that you can have with your child that gives them the permission when
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16 they need it to do the exact same.
00:21:17 --> 00:21:21 Looking for mental health resources that actually fit who you are and where
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 you come from? Then you need to check out the Help Hub.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:28 It's not another generic wellness site. It's a free, inclusive,
00:21:28 --> 00:21:32 online platform built for real people living real lives.
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00:21:39 --> 00:21:43 At the Help Hub, you'll find the resources, tools, treatment options,
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 and trauma-informed content you need in the moment.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 Without having to dig through endless tabs or start from scratch.
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00:22:06 --> 00:22:10 Mm-hmm. That was the first time that I really saw my mom cry,
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 was when Klang took his life.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:18 Yeah. That was the first time that I'd ever, because my mom had always been
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 so stoic and strong, because that's what she had to do.
00:22:22 --> 00:22:29 And yeah, when you see your parent crumble like that, it shifts everything for you. Mm-hmm.
00:22:30 --> 00:22:36 In so many different ways. So when Corey took his life, My children did not
00:22:36 --> 00:22:37 know about Cleen and David.
00:22:38 --> 00:22:42 So not only did we have to tell our children that Corey took his life,
00:22:43 --> 00:22:49 and also we were the last people to see Corey alive in the family.
00:22:50 --> 00:22:54 I know he did it on purpose because he was planning, but he made a point to
00:22:54 --> 00:22:58 show up to my kid's birthday party two days before he took his life.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:05 Wow. And I think he did that on purpose because he had bought a gun that week. and I,
00:23:05 --> 00:23:11 To make sure that he saw us all. In retrospect, I look back and there was a heaviness to him.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:15 But we had to tell our children, not only did their Uncle Cory,
00:23:16 --> 00:23:20 who they were just reconnecting with because we had just moved back from Virginia
00:23:20 --> 00:23:21 and were reconnecting with family.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:27 And then I had to tell them, oh, by the way, I have two other brothers that have taken their lives.
00:23:28 --> 00:23:31 So this is a repeating pattern for my family.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 And then their immediate thought was
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 oh are are you gonna do
00:23:38 --> 00:23:42 that i wondered if that's what you're gonna say and if
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 i had to lie to them and tell them no
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 i'm not in danger little did they know that
00:23:47 --> 00:23:50 i've survived three of my own attempts in the early
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 2000s my son does not know
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 about that still my daughter finally did know about that my
00:23:56 --> 00:23:59 daughter's learned a lot about me since starting this podcast
00:23:59 --> 00:24:02 there's a lot of things that she's learned that i didn't want her to know
00:24:02 --> 00:24:05 till she was in her 20s but she's
00:24:05 --> 00:24:12 gotten and she has wow that's hard when again you want to be that strong parent
00:24:12 --> 00:24:18 but allowing them to see that vulnerable what i call broken even though you're
00:24:18 --> 00:24:22 not broken but that right broken version of you mm-hmm,
00:24:23 --> 00:24:29 You know what you're doing, what I'm doing too, but what you and I have to say
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 one thing before I say the other, because one thing just popped into my head
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 offline. You and I were talking about my grandmother, who I rarely,
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 if ever, talk about on this podcast.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:41 My father's mother, who is no longer living.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:47 The very polar opposite of my mother's mother, who was my best friend in the
00:24:47 --> 00:24:51 world next to my mom. And my grandmother, we were talking about how the day
00:24:51 --> 00:24:55 she found out that my dad died, which, of course, she, like everybody else,
00:24:55 --> 00:24:55 thought it was a heart attack.
00:24:56 --> 00:25:01 Everyone in my family is descending on our house to be with my mother, to be with me.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:07 And my grandmother calls and says she'll be there when she can after her appointment
00:25:07 --> 00:25:11 at the beauty salon to get her hair done, to make sure that she's appropriate
00:25:11 --> 00:25:14 to receive people who are coming to pay their condolences.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:23 So you talk about posturing, you talk about performative, you talk about appearances, and not a tear.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:27 I just remember my grandmother, I have this vivid memory of,
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 we had a split level house growing up, and I remember my grandmother coming
00:25:30 --> 00:25:35 in the door with my Uncle Milton, and she had all of these framed photographs of my dad.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 And my grandmother came in with her hair completely done, it looked fantastic,
00:25:40 --> 00:25:46 And she was wailing, but not a single tear. I will never forget.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:50 I was like, wow, grandma's making all these weird noises, but she's not crying.
00:25:50 --> 00:25:51 Why isn't she actually crying?
00:25:52 --> 00:25:59 Never saw a single tear fall from my grandmother for my father at the funeral, at the shiva.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 We sit shiva for seven days after someone dies when you're Jewish.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 Not a single solitary tear.
00:26:06 --> 00:26:13 That is so odd. And yet I see my mother, who is one of the strongest women I
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 know, but also one of the most deeply emotional. I get my emotion from my mom
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17 and her side of the family.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:21 And my mother's been breaking generational patterns for years,
00:26:21 --> 00:26:25 like patterns that were set by my father's family. Yeah.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:30 I learned at such a young age, I always knew it was okay to cry.
00:26:30 --> 00:26:35 I always saw my mother tear up, whether she was joyful or whether she was sad.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:40 And I feel like that is one of the greatest gifts that my mom has ever given
00:26:40 --> 00:26:46 me, is the freedom and permission to feel whatever I felt and to express it.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 Especially something like grief, which I've been accompanied by my entire life.
00:26:51 --> 00:26:56 And you're doing the same for your kids. And I feel like, what a gift that is
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 that you're giving them, you know? The realness.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:05 Life is not a sugar cookie. Life is hard.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:13 And if we can show them with love and kindness that life is really damn hard.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:17 But if we don't have to keep it in, if we show up for each other,
00:27:17 --> 00:27:18 especially your core family.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 And I've made that abundantly clear to my children.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 There is nothing, and I've never heard these words from my parents,
00:27:27 --> 00:27:32 there is nothing on this earth that you could do that would make me not love you.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:38 Nothing. I will show up for you no matter what it is, no matter what time of
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 day, no matter where you are.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 I am there 100%. And we're the same way with our girls, and they know that.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 And they know that, and they are so, and they both told us in different ways.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:54 Many times over the years that they know how lucky they are because they have
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 that unconditional love.
00:27:57 --> 00:28:02 And I know I have that from my mom too. If there was, and maybe you've already
00:28:02 --> 00:28:08 said it, if there was one pattern from your childhood and your upbringing that
00:28:08 --> 00:28:12 you are consciously not repeating with your kids, what would you say that that is?
00:28:12 --> 00:28:14 Take all the time you need to think about it. You're being timed.
00:28:19 --> 00:28:20 What do you think?
00:28:21 --> 00:28:27 That they matter. That they're seen and they're heard.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:33 Yeah. And that they are loved unconditionally.
00:28:34 --> 00:28:41 I've seen your kids. I've met your kids virtually. Met them and hung out a little bit with them.
00:28:41 --> 00:28:47 And the way your kids look at you and the way your kids talk to you And the
00:28:47 --> 00:28:55 kind of love that radiates from them toward you is so unbelievably beautiful.
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 And you are doing it. They are loved.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:02 The kids who act like that, they know they are loved and they are safe and they
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04 are protected and they are supported.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:08 And I know that my girls feel the same way.
00:29:08 --> 00:29:11 And they've said it over and over and over again. And obviously they're older,
00:29:12 --> 00:29:16 so they have kind of a different maturity level and perspective at this point in their lives.
00:29:17 --> 00:29:19 And the older they get, the more that they say it.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:22 Because the more they see in the world with the people that they now,
00:29:22 --> 00:29:26 like they have their own lives and their own worlds. And they see a lot.
00:29:27 --> 00:29:31 And a lot of their friends have had to fend for themselves and have had no support.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:35 And you're on your own and not loved.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:42 And our kids can say that they are. And if there was ever a pattern to break,
00:29:42 --> 00:29:48 that generational pattern, like, good on you for doing that for them.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:52 Because that is the greatest gift that you can ever give a child.
00:29:53 --> 00:29:57 And my children, especially my son, he's a mama's boy.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:06 And he'll come to me and he'll just say, Mama, I love you. Just out of nowhere. Yeah.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:11 And he'll give me a big hug and things like that. And again, I...
00:30:12 --> 00:30:16 I'll remember at his age, he's 12, I hated my mom.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 By that age, I hated her.
00:30:21 --> 00:30:28 And so, yeah, there's a lot of healing that comes from having children.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:32 I've told my brother this. He doesn't have any children yet.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:36 But I said, just you wait until you have children.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:41 Those tiny little humans. Like if you think you're doing the hard work now to
00:30:41 --> 00:30:46 do healing, wait till you have those tiny little humans and they will show you
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 unconditional love in a way you've never experienced.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:55 Yeah, and that's the thing that counters how hard it is to be okay as a parent
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57 while you're parenting and grieving.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:02 It's because of them and what they give us back and how they support us when
00:31:02 --> 00:31:06 they're old enough to be able to support us and things like that.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:10 Yeah, and I think, too, another way that I'm doing things differently,
00:31:10 --> 00:31:17 and I know because we've talked about it before, my mother views parenthood as a sacrifice.
00:31:18 --> 00:31:22 I view motherhood as a privilege and an honor.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:27 Yeah, it's the greatest gift I've ever known. It is the reason why I know I'm here.
00:31:28 --> 00:31:33 Oh, absolutely. I knew when my daughter was born, she was my firstborn,
00:31:33 --> 00:31:38 I knew within a few days, and I just had this moment, and I was holding her
00:31:38 --> 00:31:42 as a newborn, nursing her, and I was like, just this overwhelming feeling of purpose.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:45 I was like, I finally know what I'm meant to do.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:47 This is my purpose right here.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:50 And it was beautiful. I'll never forget it.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:58 Yeah. Yeah. It's a privilege, not a right. And it is truly the only gift I ever need in this world.
00:31:58 --> 00:32:02 And it's hard. Look, it's hard. Like we started the whole conversation.
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04 It's hard on the best of days.
00:32:04 --> 00:32:11 It is excruciating when you have to grieve the loss of someone that you love.
00:32:11 --> 00:32:15 But when you have kids who are old enough Like if there's anyone listening to
00:32:15 --> 00:32:19 us right now And you have kids And whatever age they are.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:26 Don't feel like you can't show them that side of yourself.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:33 That is the permission slip for them, to be able to show that to the rest of
00:32:33 --> 00:32:34 the world when they're not okay.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:38 And it shows they're human, and it shows you're fallible, and it shows that
00:32:38 --> 00:32:41 you feel things and that you hurt.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:46 And if you ever want your kids to see you as a human being, which so often are,
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 we never see teachers as human beings because we
00:32:48 --> 00:32:51 don't think they exist outside of school and we never see our
00:32:51 --> 00:32:55 parents that way because they're our parents and they can't
00:32:55 --> 00:32:58 possibly be real human beings but when they
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 see you grieve and they see you're sad that is
00:33:02 --> 00:33:07 that is a way to humanize you real real quick so well you're showing them what
00:33:07 --> 00:33:13 resilience looks like yes and that showing pain is is okay and and And you're
00:33:13 --> 00:33:15 showing them honesty and that
00:33:15 --> 00:33:21 as parents are not perfect and it's not a performance and it's just real.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 Like the biggest thing that we can show for our children is realness,
00:33:25 --> 00:33:26 honesty, and compassion.
00:33:26 --> 00:33:30 And then, and you have reminded me this many, many times,
00:33:31 --> 00:33:38 my children are seeing me pick myself up over and over and over as I have fought
00:33:38 --> 00:33:42 with my own inner demons after losing brother after brother.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:45 And just showing them the realness of life.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:52 It's not a performance. No, no. And not only are you showing them that,
00:33:52 --> 00:33:57 but you're showing them that you can survive after loss.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:00 You can find joy after loss.
00:34:00 --> 00:34:08 You can have meaningful relationships and a life that matters, that is of purpose.
00:34:09 --> 00:34:13 Even when you're walking side by side with grief or with loss that you can have
00:34:13 --> 00:34:17 all of those things because all of those things are part of the human experience.
00:34:17 --> 00:34:21 And when you show your kids that, that immediately gives them permission to
00:34:21 --> 00:34:22 go do that in their own lives.
00:34:23 --> 00:34:26 Yeah, absolutely. And if you're grieving and you're parenting,
00:34:26 --> 00:34:28 and you know what, you can't get out of bed.
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32 I had many, many days like that. Don't get out of bed. Don't get out of bed.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:34 You're not failing your kids.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36 Just be real and be honest and be like, you know what? And I did.
00:34:36 --> 00:34:37 I said, honey, I'm sorry.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:43 My heart hurts. I just can't today. You are not failing your child.
00:34:45 --> 00:34:48 And you've got to give yourself some grace. Absolutely. You're showing them
00:34:48 --> 00:34:49 what grieving looks like.
00:34:50 --> 00:34:54 And that grief is love, trying to find its way out.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:58 And that children don't need a perfect parent. They just need one that is present.
00:34:58 --> 00:35:03 And if you don't have the energy to go out and you're just in bed, can you snuggle with me?
00:35:03 --> 00:35:06 Would you mind snuggling with mama? I need you.
00:35:07 --> 00:35:11 Presence. You know, it also, too, when you have children who are old enough,
00:35:11 --> 00:35:14 and a lot of people who might be listening to this might have young children,
00:35:14 --> 00:35:16 and maybe young, young children, it might not apply.
00:35:16 --> 00:35:21 But when you have children who are like of an age where they understand conversation
00:35:21 --> 00:35:25 and they understand happy, sad, and they can cuddle with you or support you,
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 it's very empowering for a child,
00:35:28 --> 00:35:32 when their parent says, hey, I need you. I need your help.
00:35:33 --> 00:35:37 Yes, it is. You have the power to make me feel better.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:42 So don't shield your kids from everything. There's always a way to say something.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:46 There's always a way to communicate what's going on in an age-appropriate way.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:48 You know your kids better than anybody.
00:35:49 --> 00:35:53 The bottom line here is don't be afraid. Like if you're parenting through grief
00:35:53 --> 00:35:56 right now and you feel like this is impossible, I can't do this,
00:35:56 --> 00:36:01 I can't show up, I can't get out of bed, I can't be what I have to be, here are a few things.
00:36:01 --> 00:36:04 Just thoughts to hang on to and think about.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:11 You don't have to be cheerful and doing cartwheels to be a loving parent.
00:36:11 --> 00:36:14 You can still be a loving parent who cares for your kids and still be sad and
00:36:14 --> 00:36:18 dealing with your own stuff. Because we are parents and people all at the same time, always.
00:36:19 --> 00:36:23 Second thing is your presence, and Natasha already said it so beautifully,
00:36:23 --> 00:36:29 your presence is way more than your performance in any circumstance.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:35 And the last thing is that no matter how you show up, if you're grieving,
00:36:36 --> 00:36:40 even if it's just being there and you're just in the same house,
00:36:40 --> 00:36:46 but you're sitting in bed, it's an act of love to show up in whatever form you
00:36:46 --> 00:36:48 are when you're grieving.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:55 So just give yourself permission to be human is what this whole entire conversation boils down to.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:59 So. I mean, and make it clear, though, they're not responsible for fixing you.
00:37:00 --> 00:37:02 Right. That's so good. I'm so glad you said that. They are witnesses.
00:37:03 --> 00:37:07 They're not caretakers. Mm-hmm. That's a fine line you have to balance, though.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:12 Yep. You know, and dealing with parentification, which is something,
00:37:12 --> 00:37:15 you know, I've dealt with growing up in a polygamous family.
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 Yep. The older children became the caretakers.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:24 Yep. And so, yeah, it's a fine line. But just show your kids the real raw you.
00:37:24 --> 00:37:26 Yep. With some boundaries.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:29 Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Well said. Well said.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:33 So to every parent listening to this conversation, and we hope you listened
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35 all the way to this point, because I feel like a lot of the great nuggets were
00:37:35 --> 00:37:37 in the last part of this conversation.
00:37:37 --> 00:37:39 Well, they were all throughout the conversation, but especially at the end.
00:37:40 --> 00:37:44 If you feel like you're not doing enough, we promise you, take it from two moms
00:37:44 --> 00:37:50 who have grieved, who have loved, who have raised kids, you are enough.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:53 That was a beautiful conversation, by the way. I'm really, really,
00:37:53 --> 00:37:54 really glad that we had it.
00:37:55 --> 00:38:00 Next week is a big week for you, and it's a big week for your brother,
00:38:01 --> 00:38:02 Ward, who is your younger brother.
00:38:04 --> 00:38:08 We are going to talk, I'm really going to kind of sit back and just kind of
00:38:08 --> 00:38:12 lead the conversation in different places and let you two kind of run with it.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:16 We're going to talk about life inside the FLDS, which we have done quite a bit
00:38:16 --> 00:38:22 this season as a way of having our audience in this community get to know you
00:38:22 --> 00:38:26 and where you came from because you got so many different stories and have had
00:38:26 --> 00:38:27 so many different traumas.
00:38:27 --> 00:38:36 For the very first time, your brother is going to talk publicly about his perspective of life,
00:38:36 --> 00:38:43 in the FLDS and what you went through and what your childhood was like.
00:38:43 --> 00:38:46 And we're doing a three part episode that will start next week.
00:38:47 --> 00:38:50 It's going to be very raw, likely to be very, very emotional.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:55 So we really hope you'll show up for it because we're really excited to have Ward here.
00:38:55 --> 00:38:59 And Ward, If you're listening right now, we're really, really excited to have
00:38:59 --> 00:39:02 you. We know it's not going to be easy, but we'll get through it together.
00:39:02 --> 00:39:06 I mean, you're not supposed to have favorite siblings, but I sure do. He's my favorite.
00:39:07 --> 00:39:10 Oh, that's sweet. That's very sweet. We won't tell anybody. Guys,
00:39:10 --> 00:39:12 if you just heard Natasha say that, don't tell anybody.
00:39:13 --> 00:39:18 So until next week, we'll be back right exactly when we're supposed to be.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:23 Next Wednesday, our episode with Ward and Natasha will drop.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:26 Until then, we're really glad you were here. keep surviving.
00:39:26 --> 00:39:27 Have a beautiful day, everyone.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:32 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:39:32 --> 00:39:37 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:42 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:39:42 --> 00:39:45 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:39:46 --> 00:39:50 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:39:50 --> 00:39:51 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:56 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:39:57 --> 00:40:00 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:40:00 --> 00:40:01 help is always out there.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:06 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:40:06 --> 00:40:10 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:40:10 --> 00:40:13 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:17 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:40:17 --> 00:40:21 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:40:21 --> 00:40:26 Until then, take care of yourself and your people, and keep surviving.