*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this conversation, Lisa Sugarman and Natasha J Layton delve into Natasha's experiences growing up in the FLDS, a polygamous cult. They discuss the unique dynamics of her family life, the influence of Warren Jeffs, and the emotional climate of the community. Natasha shares personal anecdotes that highlight the challenges and complexities of her upbringing, setting the stage for deeper discussions in future episodes. In this conversation, Natasha J Layton shares her experiences growing up in a polygamous community under the control of Warren Jeffs.
The discussion highlights the growing tension within her family as her mother began to assert her independence, the challenges faced when transitioning to public school, and the emotional bonds formed with her brother Ward. The conversation also touches on the financial stress experienced during the holidays and the importance of self-care amidst trauma.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
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Takeaways
- This conversation is like a teaser episode.
- Natasha's brother has never shared anything publicly.
- The FLDS community had a unique emotional climate.
- Natasha's family was an anomaly in the polygamous world.
- Their household ran like a well-oiled machine.
- Warren Jeffs was a significant authority figure in their lives.
- The family dynamics were complex with multiple mothers.
- Natasha's father chose his children over the church.
- The community prepared for the end of the world.
- School days were heavily influenced by Warren Jeffs' rules. Warren Jeffs had a controlling presence in the community.
- Natasha's mother began to break away from community norms.
- The family faced tension as they navigated their identities.
- Public school was a challenging experience for Natasha.
- Bullying was a significant issue for Natasha in public school.
- Natasha and Ward share a strong bond despite family challenges.
- Financial stress can impact holiday experiences.
- Coping mechanisms are essential for dealing with trauma.
- The importance of self-care during difficult times.
- The family's story is a complex mix of trauma and resilience.
Chapters
00:00 Setting the Stage for Powerful Conversations 03:00 Life in the FLDS: A Unique Perspective 05:52 The Dynamics of a Polygamous Household 08:57 Warren Jeffs: The Authority Figure 12:04 The Impact of Excommunication 14:53 School Days Under Warren Jeffs 18:04 Growing Up in a Controlled Environment 18:43 The Growing Tension in the Community 23:01 The Shift in Family Dynamics 28:00 Navigating Public School and Bullying 30:02 Preparing for the Next Chapter with Ward 34:07 Financial Stress During the Holidays
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:30 So this conversation, I feel like this conversation is,
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 And what's like a setting the table episode.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:38 Do you know what I mean? Like set the table like teaser, just another word for
00:00:38 --> 00:00:40 teaser, because in January,
00:00:40 --> 00:00:44 and you and I have been talking about this a lot lately, we are launching a
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 series that I know will probably be some of the most powerful conversations
00:00:48 --> 00:00:53 that we've had yet, because it's not just going to include the two of us.
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 It's going to include your younger brother, Ward.
00:00:58 --> 00:01:04 And you guys grew up inside the FLDS, that polygamy cult.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:09 And you've never spoken together publicly, right, about your story?
00:01:09 --> 00:01:12 No. Until now. I know you have. I mean, you've talked, obviously,
00:01:13 --> 00:01:16 here. But he has not shared anything publicly ever.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:21 Yeah. So he's a very private person also because he was in the military for
00:01:21 --> 00:01:25 a few years for four or five years. OK. So, yeah.
00:01:25 --> 00:01:31 Yeah. But he is now, which is just, I think, going to be an amazing conversation
00:01:31 --> 00:01:36 because I'm really going to kind of step back and let you guys just take the
00:01:36 --> 00:01:37 wheel and have that conversation.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:43 But before we bring Ward in, we need to kind of build more context.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:47 And you and I have been talking an awful lot about you and about your background
00:01:47 --> 00:01:51 and what brought you and I together and what makes your story so compelling.
00:01:51 --> 00:01:56 And we talked, I think it was last week that we talked about the fact that together
00:01:56 --> 00:01:57 between us, just you and I,
00:01:58 --> 00:02:04 we have eight suicide losses together, not to mention all the sexual abuse and
00:02:04 --> 00:02:11 domestic abuse and polygamy life and all the attempts that you've made on your own life.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:15 And so there's so much that you and I bring to this conversation. But,
00:02:16 --> 00:02:20 And we're kind of focusing in on the FLDS part right now. And so this is like
00:02:20 --> 00:02:24 a teaser episode for what's coming in the middle of January.
00:02:24 --> 00:02:29 And it's where we start to kind of understand the atmosphere that you lived in.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 And I know that your family was a little bit different, and I know you're going
00:02:32 --> 00:02:35 to talk a lot about why your family was a little bit different,
00:02:35 --> 00:02:39 even though you're part of Warren Jeffs' family, you're his niece,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 your dad was his brother,
00:02:41 --> 00:02:46 that your parents were a little more, would progressive be the right word? Yeah.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:49 Word? Okay. And that would be the right word for it, for sure. Yeah.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:55 So you definitely had the rules. You definitely had a lot of the fear, that whole hierarchy.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:02 And you had a total of 20 siblings. So in that way, it was very much like what
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 the traditional life would be like.
00:03:05 --> 00:03:15 But I guess what we could talk about today is what was it like to be born into that world?
00:03:16 --> 00:03:20 What was it like? I mean, people hear about the FLDS, which is,
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 tell people who may not know what FLDS stands for, just the letters, the acronym.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints. Okay, so it's an offshoot of Mormonism.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:34 It believes in multiple wives. and so you had three moms.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:43 So what was the emotional climate like of the FLDS when you were like,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:47 it was the 90s before you got excommunicated. You guys were excommunicated, right? Yeah.
00:03:48 --> 00:03:54 So what did it feel like to live there? What was that like? What was the day-to-day
00:03:54 --> 00:03:56 like when you were in the thick of it?
00:03:57 --> 00:04:02 Okay. Our house ran like a well-oiled machine. I will say that.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:07 We had chore charts morning, afternoon, evening, and then Saturday chores.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:12 It was very well organized. You went on that chore chart at six years old, first grade.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:16 There was a little kid chore chart, and then there was the older kid chore chart.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:21 And I mean, I remember we would get up and get ready for school.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:26 You know, two of the kids were packing lunches. The mom was making breakfast
00:04:26 --> 00:04:32 other kids were setting the table I mean it just it was a very well oiled machine
00:04:32 --> 00:04:39 and I think that was by my mom's design she's very well organized and I I do know that I'll.
00:04:40 --> 00:04:45 Again, we were an anomaly. Most polygamous households do not run that well.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:49 In fact, a lot of polygamous households had a very odd smell because of all
00:04:49 --> 00:04:54 the cooking and the long, this is so random, but like the long underwear and
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 you stink because you're wearing multiple layers and it's in Utah.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:03 And so when we would have people over, they always commented on how well our
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 house smelled and how clean our house was.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:10 And if you know anything about the Wayman family, which is my mother's side
00:05:10 --> 00:05:13 of the family, they are very clean people.
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 And so it was, you keep your hands off the wall.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:21 Like, if we ever got caught putting our hands on the walls, like,
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 we would run down the stairs and with our hands down the wall. I don't know why.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:28 Just what we did. If we ever got caught, we got smacked.
00:05:28 --> 00:05:32 It's just kids do it. They run down the hole.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:37 Keep your damn hand off the wall. But every Saturday, those walls got scrubbed.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 There were so many chores constantly going on, polishing my dad's shoes,
00:05:44 --> 00:05:48 cleaning out the vehicles every Saturday, scrubbing baseboards,
00:05:48 --> 00:05:49 scrubbing the cupboards.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:55 I mean, I'm talking, there was not an inch of that house that did not get touched on a weekly.
00:05:55 --> 00:06:00 It was nuts. But again, it was just a very well-oiled machines The mom took
00:06:00 --> 00:06:04 turns They rotated the three mothers Who would cook dinner each night,
00:06:05 --> 00:06:09 And my mom was learning how to be a chef And a baker and all these She's always
00:06:09 --> 00:06:14 very good at cooking But she was learning And so her meals were getting a little
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 bit more fancy And then Susan and Martha were just kind of like,
00:06:18 --> 00:06:22 Susan was still a very good cook But I don't remember this.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:29 And Martha apparently was always cooking like the same just random basic bland ass meals.
00:06:30 --> 00:06:32 And these are your two moms, your two other moms. So you have three.
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 Yeah. They're Susan, Sherry, and Martha. And my mother is Sherry.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 So it got to the point where everybody would be looking forward to the nights
00:06:41 --> 00:06:44 that my mom would cook because they were really good.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 But we had a table, a really long table.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:53 My dad sat at the head of the table. His place setting was always very, he had a cloth napkin.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 He had like this full-on like nice place
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 setting all the things it was very fancy
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 his place setting I think the mom's maybe too and it
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 was oldest to youngest you know the mom's up at the front and then just the
00:07:07 --> 00:07:12 older kids to younger kids at the table I want to ask you a question about that
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 and I think you might I think you might have said this at one point at one point
00:07:15 --> 00:07:23 at any given point What was the largest number of people living under one roof? Do you remember?
00:07:23 --> 00:07:29 I think it was 15. There's 15 children and then the four adults, so 21 people.
00:07:29 --> 00:07:33 That's crazy. I can't even imagine. It's like Thanksgiving dinner.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 So we used to host Thanksgiving for 20 years. Right. It's Thanksgiving dinner
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 every day for every meal.
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 I just can't get my mind around it.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 It is. And again, my family was small. Yeah.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:50 My family was on the smaller side for being a polygamous family, to be perfectly honest.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:55 It was very common for them to have 30 plus children, especially with three wives.
00:07:56 --> 00:08:01 Well, that wasn't, wasn't the three, three was like the magic number to get into heaven, right?
00:08:01 --> 00:08:05 Yeah. So you had to have at least three wives, but didn't some have,
00:08:06 --> 00:08:07 I mean, some had five, some had.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:12 Yes. Certainly more than that, which means, you know, you look at your uncle
00:08:12 --> 00:08:16 Warren or even your grandfather, And didn't your grandfather have like 65 wives
00:08:16 --> 00:08:19 or something like that? Something like that.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:25 He and as he got older and he wasn't even able to consummate the marriage for the last like 40 of them.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:29 He was just it was he was just basically like running a nunnery.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 Yeah. It was weird. They were sharing bedrooms like teenage.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:37 Not that he didn't marry underage girls, but like how teenage girls are shacked
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 up in a dorm room is what I had heard.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:46 I'd never gone into those. So when he was collecting all these wives,
00:08:46 --> 00:08:48 essentially, was when he had moved down to Colorado City.
00:08:49 --> 00:08:54 I do remember going into grandfather's home, grandfather Jeff's home,
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 when I was younger, going into my grandmother's bedroom.
00:08:57 --> 00:09:00 We had a very good relationship with my dad's mom. Her name's LaRue.
00:09:00 --> 00:09:05 She was a very, very sweet lady, just a really kind and gentle woman.
00:09:05 --> 00:09:09 And when she was forced to move down, you know, grandfather's like,
00:09:09 --> 00:09:14 nope, everybody's going to move down to Colorado City for preparation for the end of the world.
00:09:15 --> 00:09:19 We were so sad when she left because she would come over for holidays and things like that.
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 Again, we celebrated the holidays, 4th of July, not Christmas.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:23 We couldn't celebrate Christmas.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:29 I don't know why. It's weird. But 4th of July, Thanksgiving, things like that. Yeah.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 And then as Warren started to gain power as a form of control,
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 he started to take away the holidays.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:40 So this is your old, just for context, because there are a lot of players in
00:09:40 --> 00:09:41 your story, your side of the team.
00:09:41 --> 00:09:46 You've got a big team on your side. So you're... People take notes, I'm sorry.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 Well, right. I feel like we should have like a running ticker on the screen.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 One of these days we'll like talk about a family tree or put up a family tree.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:58 On a whiteboard and just be like... That's not a bad idea.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:04 I should probably do that. Your father, for people who are listening to your
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 story, who understand what the FLDS is and was,
00:10:08 --> 00:10:16 your father was the brother of Warren Jeffs, the FBI's number one most wanted criminal.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:23 He was marrying underage girls. He was, oh, my God, what wasn't he doing that
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 was illicit, immoral, illegal?
00:10:27 --> 00:10:34 And your, God, your, the thing that just keeps popping into my mind right now
00:10:34 --> 00:10:37 is what you just said a couple minutes ago about the end of the world.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:40 You were preparing for the end of the world. So when your grandfather,
00:10:40 --> 00:10:46 who was the prophet at the time, died, your uncle took over,
00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 kicked your father out because your father represented a threat.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:54 Right, in the 90s. So we, yeah, we left in 90s. Well, grandfather gave dad a choice.
00:10:55 --> 00:10:56 You can stay in the church and
00:10:56 --> 00:11:00 cut off your children that have left the church. You have to cut them off.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:07 Or you're excommunicated. And, you know, in my dad's eyes, it was your children or your church.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:12 And my dad, that was one thing about my dad. He loved and adored his children.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 And he would never. So he chose his children. So he chose his children.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:22 And so then his brother, Warren Jeffs, took over and everything changed.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:27 Everything he just ratcheted down on everything and everyone and no holidays
00:11:27 --> 00:11:33 and got rid of all the books in the library and everyone was wearing like kind
00:11:33 --> 00:11:37 of, I'm air quoting now, the uniform, the kind of Little House on the Prairie uniform.
00:11:39 --> 00:11:45 And he was the one who really started preparing you all for the end of the world.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:49 Yeah. But again, we got out before all that happened.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:55 But we were watching it happen because I had my older brother Marcus and Brenda were still involved.
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 And they still communicated, even though they weren't supposed to.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:03 We still communicated with them a little bit. In fact, I remember going over
00:12:03 --> 00:12:08 to Brenda's house after she got married and helping her pack to move down to Colorado City.
00:12:09 --> 00:12:13 She had these big blue barrels of water in her basement.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:17 And I asked her what it was for. And I kind of snickered a little bit because
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 by then we were out and she got mad at me.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:23 You snickered that it was end of the world water? Is that what it was?
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 I mean, I'm going to just give it that name, the end of the world water.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:34 I was like, I've kind of been like 11 or 12 years old and I knew damn good well and it was a lie.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:41 So, all right. So since this conversation today is about kind of laying the
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 groundwork for like, what was your life like in the FLDS before we talked to
00:12:44 --> 00:12:47 your brother Ward in a few weeks? So,
00:12:48 --> 00:12:55 You have stories of being still part of the polygamous group,
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 still living there, going to school.
00:12:57 --> 00:13:00 Warren Jeffs was the principal of Alta Academy, right?
00:13:00 --> 00:13:04 Yeah, and I can share a couple little tidbits of direct contact that I had with
00:13:04 --> 00:13:08 him. We are all waiting. Share away. Okay. Let's go.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:13 So the first thing that direct interaction I had with him is,
00:13:13 --> 00:13:15 I believe I was in third grade.
00:13:16 --> 00:13:19 And I knew who my teacher was going to be.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:24 And I, again, I think she's one of the sisters in the Wall family,
00:13:24 --> 00:13:25 if I remember correctly.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:29 The Keep Sweet, Pray, and Obey. They're the main people in that documentary.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:30 She's one of their sisters.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:36 Anyway, I don't know if you remember back in the early 90s, culottes.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:38 Does everybody remember culottes?
00:13:38 --> 00:13:42 Okay, so my mom always, she loved to make matching outfits for me and my sister
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 Jerusha. We always looked really cute.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:49 And I so long about second and third grade is when Warren was really buckling
00:13:49 --> 00:13:56 down on like no skin showing like you were wrist ankle neck to just covered
00:13:56 --> 00:14:02 and I was over there helping my teacher get ready for school to start in a few weeks and I was up.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 In one of the supply rooms cutting something
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 and Warren came in and okay so
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 you got to remember I was like nine ten years old and I was working
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 on something and the hair on the back of my neck stood up
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 and I turned around and Warren was standing there
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 and he he said Natasha
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 what are you doing in here and I said I'm helping this Catherine and
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 I was wearing culottes but I was not wearing any
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 tights my bare freaking calves and ankles were
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 showing and must have
00:14:32 --> 00:14:36 done something to him because he asked me to go home and change my clothes because
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 he could see my skin he could
00:14:39 --> 00:14:46 see your skin on my legs so i went home and changed and then i went back in
00:14:46 --> 00:14:52 and how and you know finished out and then school year started and i think it
00:14:52 --> 00:14:58 was the first day of school again i I was wearing these red culottes and little white lace socks.
00:14:59 --> 00:15:03 And I was not wearing tights or long underwear. And you could see my skin.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:08 I got sent home to change because my skin on my legs was showing.
00:15:08 --> 00:15:12 And this is, yeah, when I was about third grade is really when things started
00:15:12 --> 00:15:16 to take off. And the weirdness really, really started with having any kind of skin showing.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 When I started fourth grade...
00:15:19 --> 00:15:24 My, there was some sort of notice or something sent out from Warren that the
00:15:24 --> 00:15:26 girls were not supposed to cut their hair.
00:15:27 --> 00:15:34 And two weeks before school started, my mom was cutting my hair and she cut my bangs too short.
00:15:34 --> 00:15:38 We were not, I don't know what it was about bangs, but bangs were forbidden.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:45 She cut my hair too short and I had the big floppy bangs in the 90s.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:50 School, first day morning class. Again, you know, this is where Warren would
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 get up and preach for the first hour of every day of school.
00:15:54 --> 00:16:02 Can I just say, his voice makes me want to... His voice is so triggering to
00:16:02 --> 00:16:06 me that it really, it just makes me want to close-fisted punch him in the throat.
00:16:06 --> 00:16:09 It really does. Imagine how we feel.
00:16:09 --> 00:16:15 I know. I feel it for you. And he was not my uncle. I just watched him on a documentary.
00:16:15 --> 00:16:21 And every time his voice comes on, he's just the skeeviest little man.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:24 He is. He is so skeevy.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28 He is so nasty. And so he's sitting up there, first day of school, fourth grade.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:34 And he said, any girls that cut their hair over the summer need to report to my office.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37 And it was abundantly clear that my bangs had been cut.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:42 And I felt all these eyes on me. And I was like, oh, sweet Jesus. Just bury me now.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:47 And lo and behold, my teacher later that day, she says, no, I know.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:52 And it had started to become known that my mom was a rebel and she was not following the rules.
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 And Ms. Bauer, she says, no, I know your mother.
00:16:56 --> 00:17:00 She's a very kind woman, but she has a tendency to break the rules.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 So we need to go up and talk to Uncle Warren.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:06 And that's what everyone called him was Uncle Warren. Yes.
00:17:06 --> 00:17:09 And that was, again, a term of endearment. He set that up, though.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:12 You weren't supposed to call anybody Uncle So-and-so unless you were the prophet.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:17 But he was really starting to take hold of people long about the mid-90s.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:23 So we went up and we sat in his office and he asked, I'm a very truthful person.
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 He says, now I understand that you cut your hair.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 And I says, I didn't cut my hair. My mom cut my hair. Uh-oh.
00:17:30 --> 00:17:34 It's your mom right under the bus. and then backed up over her.
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38 And he said, are there any other girls in your family that cut their hair?
00:17:38 --> 00:17:39 And I was like, yes, Jenny did.
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 Just giving it all away. I didn't know.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:48 You know, I'm just sitting there answering questions. But I just remember any
00:17:48 --> 00:17:52 time I got sent to his office, and this is long about the time I'm developing
00:17:52 --> 00:17:56 my personality and becoming more, I guess, outspoken.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:01 I had been sent to my office because I had written on my hands.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 Just random little things that just are so tiny.
00:18:06 --> 00:18:12 But I remember each time I got called to his office, I just felt gross.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:17 And Jenny later told me that she's like, why did you tell Warren I cut my hair?
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 I got called to his office. I'm like, I'm sorry.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24 I didn't know you were going to get in trouble. Just random little things like that.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:29 But he definitely had this presence about him that was growing and growing.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:36 Just becoming more skeeby. And I do remember now we're in fifth grade,
00:18:36 --> 00:18:40 and halfway through the school year, we're all up doing our thing,
00:18:40 --> 00:18:44 getting ready for the day, getting ready to go to school, and Warren calls my dad.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:49 It's like 6.30 in the morning, and he says, I would like to feel the spirit
00:18:49 --> 00:18:52 of the school without your children in it.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:56 Oh. We're like, dad's like, keep your kids home
00:18:56 --> 00:18:59 from school that was that for a week keep your
00:18:59 --> 00:19:01 children home from school all my dad's children that were
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04 in alta academy and there was probably at
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 least 10 yeah at least 10 what was
00:19:08 --> 00:19:12 the reason that he gave your dad do you know because again so
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 this would have been 95 yeah 95
00:19:15 --> 00:19:22 96 so he's now is he prophet now or no he doesn't become prophet till 2002 okay
00:19:22 --> 00:19:30 okay but it's becoming increasingly more aware that my family is not towing
00:19:30 --> 00:19:32 the line. We're breaking the mold.
00:19:32 --> 00:19:36 We're associating with people outside of the church. Now, Warren had a direct,
00:19:37 --> 00:19:41 from his fourth-story, third-story office window in the schoolhouse,
00:19:41 --> 00:19:49 that sick fuck, excuse my French, would watch our backyard with binoculars, and he would spy on us.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:53 And he would, because he then, you know, would comment on. I do remember him
00:19:53 --> 00:19:57 asking, does your mom wear pants? I'm like, yeah.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:04 And does your mom paint her nails? Yeah. But I knew that my mom was different
00:20:04 --> 00:20:07 because my other mothers didn't do those things.
00:20:08 --> 00:20:15 But again, as my mom is getting more, I don't know, there was just a shift that happened in my mom.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:19 And she's like, I'm done towing the line. I'm done following all these stupid rules.
00:20:19 --> 00:20:23 She was getting more friends outside of the church and really coming into her own.
00:20:23 --> 00:20:28 And my mom is a very beautiful woman. And she started getting her nails done
00:20:28 --> 00:20:32 and wearing, you know, the pants with the loop, the stretch pants with the loop
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 that goes, and they were red.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:39 Like something about red. And Warren hated the color. He banned the color red.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:40 Probably because it turned him on.
00:20:40 --> 00:20:44 Of course it did. And by the way, I just want to clarify, when you called him
00:20:44 --> 00:20:48 a sick fuck a few minutes ago and you apologized for that, it's been proven
00:20:48 --> 00:20:50 in a court of law. He is a sick fuck.
00:20:51 --> 00:20:56 Looking for mental health resources that actually fit who you are and where you come from?
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00:21:17 --> 00:21:20 and trauma-informed content you need in the moment.
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00:21:25 --> 00:21:30 to land to take a breath and to find exactly what you need when you need it
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00:21:41 --> 00:21:46 I don't like to, yeah, he's just the swearing. It's okay. We'll bleep it out. I'll bleep it out. Okay.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:52 Yeah. So we were just trying to figure our life out. My dad was becoming very
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 successful and working for his brother and traveling internationally.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 My mom was going with him. So my mom and dad were getting exposed to the outside
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 world and they were loving it.
00:22:03 --> 00:22:07 And can't say that I blame them. And so there was a lot of tension in our household
00:22:07 --> 00:22:11 around this time as mom was becoming more and more,
00:22:11 --> 00:22:17 worldly is the word they'd use, and becoming more boisterous and all this stuff.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:24 And I know the other mothers were becoming very intimidated and jealous because
00:22:24 --> 00:22:28 my mom became the public facing wife, which she shouldn't have been because she was the second wife.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:33 Susan should have been the public facing wife because she was the first and legal wife.
00:22:33 --> 00:22:39 But my mom had the personality to attend these sales meetings and do all these trips with my dad.
00:22:39 --> 00:22:42 And that's what my dad needed in his line of work was somebody that was boisterous
00:22:42 --> 00:22:46 and outgoing and charming, and that's what my mother was. I have a question.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 Did your mother ever get called to Warren in his office? No.
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 Oh, he knew better. He was so intimidated by my mom.
00:22:54 --> 00:22:58 I mean, at that point, he only had control in the schoolhouse.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:03 That's true. That's true. So, do you remember, so you got out,
00:23:03 --> 00:23:11 your family was excommunicated so that your father would not threatened to challenge Warren. Right.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:18 And then you left in, you said 2000, when did you leave? We left in July of 97.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:23 Okay, 97. And so then maybe four or five years later, all of a sudden now he's taken over.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:30 And now your grandfather passes away. And Warren just kind of claims the throne.
00:23:31 --> 00:23:37 Yep. Yep. Yep. Self-proclaimed prophet and people fell for hook, line, and sinker.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:43 Mm-hmm. But he knew that he had to get rid of my dad early on because my dad
00:23:43 --> 00:23:44 would have stood up to him.
00:23:46 --> 00:23:51 Yeah. And going back to the story of how my siblings and I had to stay out of school.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:57 Oh, yeah. Circle back to that. So we didn't go to school for a week.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:03 And then the next Monday happens and Warren says, okay, now I want to feel the
00:24:03 --> 00:24:07 spirit of the school without Sherry's children in it.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 My mom's kids missed two weeks of school. Yeah.
00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 Susan's kids got to go back to school. What the hell?
00:24:15 --> 00:24:19 Yeah, I think by then, Martha, the third wife, I think she had left the family
00:24:19 --> 00:24:22 by then. That's a whole other thing. And so there was just the two moms.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:27 And when we were allowed to go back to school, Warren said, I want to meet.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:33 He told my dad, I want to have a meeting with each of your children individually with you in my office.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 And it was late at night and we were all one by
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 one called into his office and by then my sister jenny she
00:24:40 --> 00:24:46 was in high school and again she was more she didn't tell the line she was starting
00:24:46 --> 00:24:50 to do things that she wasn't supposed to be doing according to the church she
00:24:50 --> 00:24:54 told me okay when you she told all of us when you go into warren's office i
00:24:54 --> 00:24:58 want you to stare him dead in the eyes and do not break his stare.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:02 And I guarantee he will not like it.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:08 And so I did that. I went, you know, it was my turn. I went and sat across from
00:25:08 --> 00:25:10 my dad and Warren and I did just that.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 I stared him dead in the eyes and he asked about, you know, what my thoughts
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 were on the church and was I willing to follow the rules.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 And, you know, it's been abundantly clear that you.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25 Are more outspoken and you need to be more
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 timid and stuff like that and i stared him and jenny
00:25:28 --> 00:25:31 was right and he just sat there the whole time and
00:25:31 --> 00:25:35 played with the seam on his pants he would not look me in the eyes because i
00:25:35 --> 00:25:39 i was staring straight into that bastard soul and i would not break my case
00:25:39 --> 00:25:47 10 or 11 years old good for you and for you yeah and i don't know why my dad
00:25:47 --> 00:25:48 sat there and went along with it.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 I really, I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
00:25:51 --> 00:25:55 I probably should have asked him before he died.
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 You know, I think it was probably intimidation. I mean, I don't, what do I know?
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 I know less than you know, but I mean, just from what I've seen and what I've
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05 heard, I mean, the unfortunate fact is that people were brainwashed.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 People, people were raised one way.
00:26:08 --> 00:26:12 And when you're raised in isolation like that and, and everybody around you
00:26:12 --> 00:26:15 is believing the same things and following the same laws and,
00:26:16 --> 00:26:22 and carrying on in, in the same way that, you know, they don't want to get called out.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:31 They know what happens when you get called out for deviating from what's expected of you.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:35 So many people, I mean, all you have to do is watch one documentary about anything
00:26:35 --> 00:26:36 that you've lived through.
00:26:37 --> 00:26:41 And, you know, they're ripping fathers out of households. You're not allowed
00:26:41 --> 00:26:42 to see your father anymore.
00:26:42 --> 00:26:45 They're taking children away. They're reassigning your wife to another man.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:52 I mean, it just, to live in that environment, it makes perfect sense why your dad would be terrified.
00:26:52 --> 00:26:57 And it's just so unfortunate. Like, he's, and was your father the older brother?
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 Was he older than Warren?
00:26:59 --> 00:27:05 Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, my dad was in the top, you know, older of five children.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:10 Five or ten. Again, my grandfather Jeffs had 62 children. And my dad was,
00:27:10 --> 00:27:11 like, one of the first ten.
00:27:11 --> 00:27:15 So, yeah, he was older. Definitely older than Warren.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:20 Yeah, I mean, so when that's your life and that's the expectation,
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 you don't go against that expectation.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28 I mean, especially because everyone who you lived with, everybody who you were
00:27:28 --> 00:27:33 raised with, believed that your uncle was the prophet of God.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:39 So how do you challenge that? Well, I mean, like I said, he wasn't the prophet at the time.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:44 He was trying to insert his control before that.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:48 We, you know, grandfather was still alive, but it just became abundantly clear
00:27:48 --> 00:27:54 as grandfather was getting older and more senile that Warren was actually running the show.
00:27:54 --> 00:27:58 And later on in that school year, fifth grade, my mom's children were kicked
00:27:58 --> 00:28:00 out of the school and we were told not to return.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03 Wow. So I only went halfway through fifth grade.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:13 And then public school? Yeah. So we were homeschooled for, no, wait, sixth grade.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:15 My mom did decide to let me go to public school.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:20 And that's, yeah, I started a month late and went to public school.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:24 And it was an interesting experience. I was bullied a lot because I was different.
00:28:24 --> 00:28:27 And people found out who I was.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:31 And I was pretty bullied and would cry.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:35 I ended up in the bathroom crying a lot because the boys were really mean to me. Yeah.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:40 And. Doesn't take much, does it? No. I mean, and we were right there.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 Jeff's, my last name Jeff's, like everybody in that area knew that name.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:50 Like the compound was infamous within that area. Mm-hmm. And.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:55 I just, I did the best I could. And then seventh grade, my mom didn't want me
00:28:55 --> 00:28:59 to go to public school for middle school.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 They just had this notion that I was going to get into drugs and do all the things.
00:29:02 --> 00:29:06 So we were homeschooled, but not really.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:11 And then by eighth grade, I had Susan, we were excommunicated and Susan,
00:29:11 --> 00:29:15 her boys were going to go to public school.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 And so I was going to be going to public school with a younger brother and an
00:29:18 --> 00:29:22 older brother in middle school. So by then, my dad said I could go to public school.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:28 And so I went to public school, and I was the first person in my family to graduate
00:29:28 --> 00:29:29 from public high school.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 Really? I didn't know that. We all just found something out together.
00:29:33 --> 00:29:38 Yeah, I went to Brighton High School first to graduate. I know that my older
00:29:38 --> 00:29:43 siblings graduated from Alta Academy, but it was not an accredited school. But yeah.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:50 So as we move into kind of the next phase of this season, we get toward the
00:29:50 --> 00:29:55 halfway point of this season and bring your brother Ward into the conversation.
00:29:56 --> 00:30:00 I just wanted to prepare everybody for what's coming. Just kind of lay the groundwork.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 Because when Ward joins us and talks about this stuff openly for the very,
00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 very first time, it's, I'm sure, going to be very raw.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:14 I'm sure it's going to be emotional and super honest. So before he gets here,
00:30:14 --> 00:30:16 I think we have a couple of weeks in between.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:24 He'll be with us in the middle of January. What do you want people to know before he joins us?
00:30:24 --> 00:30:29 Like, what do you think that people need to understand about your family?
00:30:29 --> 00:30:35 Not just the trauma, but the bond of your family, that shared survival that
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 you have, the ways that you and Ward kind of held on to each other.
00:30:38 --> 00:30:43 Because I know you and Ward are closer than you are with anybody else in your
00:30:43 --> 00:30:45 family, right? Yes, yes.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:49 Had, you know, a very close relationship with another sibling,
00:30:49 --> 00:30:55 but that seems to have faded as I've gone public. I'm basically losing my family
00:30:55 --> 00:30:56 there. They don't like that I've
00:30:56 --> 00:31:00 gone public with my story and sharing the abuse, and it is what it is.
00:31:00 --> 00:31:04 But I will say Ward has remained in my corner and supports me 100%.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:11 And so he's the next youngest of my mother's children. There's an eight-and-a-half-year
00:31:11 --> 00:31:13 gap between the two of us.
00:31:13 --> 00:31:18 So I kind of helped raise him, and he and I are very close up.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23 And we have similar humor, like, when he comes on, people need to know,
00:31:23 --> 00:31:27 we're going to be laughing and joking about things that you're like, what?
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 But again, that's how we... Coping mechanism.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 Serious coping mechanism when you're dealing with too much trauma. Mm-hmm.
00:31:35 --> 00:31:41 But he does have a very unique perspective in that my parents split up when he was about eight.
00:31:41 --> 00:31:46 And so he was doing the back and forth thing between Susan and our mom.
00:31:46 --> 00:31:54 And he was singled out and treated unfairly by Susan and was blamed for things
00:31:54 --> 00:31:56 when her boys were doing it.
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 And that's the one thing I will say about Susan is her children,
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 she was fiercely protective of her children.
00:32:02 --> 00:32:05 And nothing that they ever did was wrong.
00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 And we were made to feel second class within our own family.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:15 That's really sad. Yeah. That's really, really sad. And that's why we're doing this episode,
00:32:16 --> 00:32:21 to really help people understand before we bring Ward in and before you have
00:32:21 --> 00:32:27 that conversation, because it creates context and it creates some compassion
00:32:27 --> 00:32:29 for what you guys really had to deal with.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:34 You were dealing with things in the greater community, in the greater FLDS community,
00:32:34 --> 00:32:40 and all of the restrictions and the lifestyle and how challenging that was.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:46 And then you were also dealing with the dynamics within your own family that
00:32:46 --> 00:32:50 had one dad, three moms, and 20 kids.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 So it's a heavy story. It's a hard story.
00:32:53 --> 00:32:58 And the more we can kind of lay the foundation for it, the better people can understand.
00:32:58 --> 00:33:03 So you gave a glimpse into that world that you were born into,
00:33:04 --> 00:33:09 kind of what your day-to-day was like and what it was like interacting with
00:33:09 --> 00:33:14 Warren Jeffs before he became the prophet next week.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:20 It's Christmas. Already? I can't even believe that next week is Christmas.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:25 I'm not even going to be in this country for Christmas. And we're going to be
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 talking about something a little bit different.
00:33:29 --> 00:33:36 So we'll put a pin in this part of your story right now,
00:33:36 --> 00:33:44 and we'll bring Ward on to really get back to it and really dig into it around the middle of January.
00:33:45 --> 00:33:49 Okay. When we come back next week, and it's going to be Christmas Eve,
00:33:49 --> 00:33:53 we're going to talk about something. You and I talked about what to talk about.
00:33:53 --> 00:33:58 And we landed on something that I'm actually really excited to talk about because
00:33:58 --> 00:34:02 I don't think we hear enough about this during the holidays.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:09 But we are talking next week about what it's like when the financial stress
00:34:09 --> 00:34:19 of the holiday hits you in ways that don't align with what you planned or wanted or needed.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:24 And I think a lot of people are going to relate to that conversation because
00:34:24 --> 00:34:28 I know we definitely in our house have had times over the years where financial
00:34:28 --> 00:34:32 burdens were incredibly heavy and holidays had to look different.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:37 So I know you and I have talked about this a little bit. You've had the same experiences.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:42 So we're going to talk about that, get through the holidays,
00:34:42 --> 00:34:47 and then in January we're going to step into a three-part series with you and your brother,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:53 Ward, And so this conversation was the teaser. Mm-hmm.
00:34:54 --> 00:35:01 Between now and then, just enjoy the holidays in the way that you can,
00:35:01 --> 00:35:08 in the way that makes sense to you, and just take care of yourself.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:10 I mean, you and I say this over and over again, take care of yourself,
00:35:10 --> 00:35:16 and remember just to keep surviving. in. It's not easy.
00:35:16 --> 00:35:23 We're all doing it in one way or another, but hopefully the holiday season will
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25 be gentle to you and you can enjoy it.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 And we'll see you back here on Christmas Eve.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 So take good care until then. Happy holidays, everyone.
00:35:34 --> 00:35:38 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:35:39 --> 00:35:42 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely
00:35:42 --> 00:35:46 not broken. Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:51 The fact that you're still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:35:52 --> 00:35:56 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:35:56 --> 00:35:57 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:35:58 --> 00:36:03 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:36:03 --> 00:36:06 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:36:06 --> 00:36:07 help is always out there.
00:36:07 --> 00:36:12 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:36:12 --> 00:36:16 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:20 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:36:20 --> 00:36:24 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:36:24 --> 00:36:27 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:32 Until then, take care of yourself and your people, and keep surviving.