*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide, sexual abuse & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In Part 2 of their deeply emotional conversation with her mother Sandy, Lisa and her mom reflect on a story their family carried quietly for decades. Together, they revisit the painful moment when Lisa’s father died by suicide and the decision Sandy made in the late 1970s to tell her young daughter that he had died of a heart attack instead. At the time, suicide was rarely spoken about openly, and the stigma surrounding mental illness made honesty feel impossible.
As they talk, Sandy shares what it was like to carry that secret while trying to protect her child from a truth she feared would cause even deeper pain. Lisa reflects on what it meant to grow up without knowing the full story, and how learning the truth 35 years later reshaped her understanding of grief, loss, and her own life. Their conversation gently explores the complicated space between protection and silence — and how the absence of truth can quietly shape a family’s story.
Together, they also discuss how the cultural landscape around suicide and mental health has changed since those earlier years. What was once hidden and whispered about is now being spoken aloud with courage and compassion. By sharing their story openly today, Lisa and Sandy hope to help break the silence that once surrounded their own experience and to remind others that no family should have to carry grief in isolation.
Ultimately, this conversation is about more than loss. It’s about truth, understanding, and the healing that can happen when we allow ourselves to speak the things that once felt unspeakable. By telling their story now, mother and daughter show that even decades later, honesty can open the door to connection, compassion, and hope.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
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Takeaways
- The impact of secrecy on mental health and family dynamics
- The process of uncovering the truth about a loved one's death
- The importance of open conversations about mental health and suicide
Chapters
00:00 Unveiling the Truth: A Personal Journey 07:36 The Day That Changed Everything 13:38 The Weight of Secrets 19:32 Navigating Grief and Fear 28:45 Reflecting on Loss and Healing
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
- National Domestic Violence Hotline – Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7223)
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 My father died when I was 10 years old, but for most of my life,
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06 I didn't know the truth about how he died.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:09 The day it happened, my mother told me he had died of a heart attack,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:13 and I believed that story for 35 years.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:17 Today, we're sitting down with the person who carried that secret for me all
00:00:17 --> 00:00:19 those years, my mom, Sandy.
00:00:20 --> 00:00:24 She's 87 years old now, and this is one of the first times we've ever talked
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 about this story publicly on the podcast.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:33 We're going to talk about losing my dad, the silence around suicide in the 1970s,
00:00:33 --> 00:00:37 and why telling the truth matters more now than ever.
00:00:38 --> 00:00:42 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:42 --> 00:00:46 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:46 --> 00:00:50 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:56 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:56 --> 00:00:58 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together. other.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:09 So last week's conversation was a big one for me, for sure.
00:01:09 --> 00:01:15 Having all my worlds collide, having my mom on the pod, and she's back.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 She's back for part two of our conversation.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:24 And if you joined us last week, you met my mom, Sandy, the cutest person on
00:01:24 --> 00:01:25 the planet, and you learned,
00:01:26 --> 00:01:32 how my story of becoming a survivor really began and what it was like to lose
00:01:32 --> 00:01:37 my dad two weeks after my 10th birthday from what I was told was a heart attack.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:42 You learned that the heart attack narrative was a lie.
00:01:42 --> 00:01:46 And I use the word lie. It seems so nasty when I say lie, but it was such an
00:01:46 --> 00:01:53 intentional untruth to save me from so much pain.
00:01:54 --> 00:02:03 And And you really did save me, Mom, from so much pain in my life.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:05 And you also...
00:02:06 --> 00:02:11 Everybody learned in the last episode that I learned that I lost my father all
00:02:11 --> 00:02:15 over again after I discovered that he had taken his own life.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:24 And so, Mom, that moment of me finding out about dad's suicide and us having
00:02:24 --> 00:02:29 that first conversation, that changed everything for both of us.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:35 It really did. It really did, because until that point, you had carried a secret
00:02:35 --> 00:02:40 that he had taken his life for 35 years. And...
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 And then it came out, and then it changed everything.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:51 Do you mind if I ask how it came out? I don't know the story of how you found out. Yeah, yeah.
00:02:53 --> 00:02:58 That's my bad for not ever having that conversation with you before,
00:02:58 --> 00:03:00 which I can't even believe I haven't had.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:04 I think I just assumed that you just knew by osmosis, I guess.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:11 But the way it happened was not like some big dramatic reveal.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 It was a super innocent conversation.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:20 Dave and I were out for lunch in my hometown, bumped into a family member who
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 I didn't see very often, who was a very big part of my life when I was very
00:03:25 --> 00:03:29 young and around the time my dad died. and we were just catching up.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:33 And she asked me about the girls, my kids, and I asked her about hers.
00:03:34 --> 00:03:39 And midway through the conversation, you talk about like a right turn without
00:03:39 --> 00:03:40 ever seeing the turn coming.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:46 She just all of a sudden asked me out of nowhere if either of our daughters,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:50 who were teens at the time, ever had any mental illness.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:53 And I was like, what? A strange question.
00:03:54 --> 00:03:58 And she said, any mental illness like your father. and i
00:03:58 --> 00:04:04 i remember dave was sitting opposite me looking at me like what the hell is
00:04:04 --> 00:04:09 she saying right now what are you talking about and i you know what you know
00:04:09 --> 00:04:12 those moments where someone says something to you that you're totally unprepared
00:04:12 --> 00:04:16 for and you just you kind of freeze you just don't know what to do with it and
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 i really didn't know what to do with it because,
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 i i knew nothing of what she was talking about and so.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:26 I really just answered the question in very simple terms, because at the time,
00:04:26 --> 00:04:31 the girls, my girls were not experiencing any mental illness that I was aware of or we were aware of.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:37 Turns out later on, both of them have issues with anxiety and depression and
00:04:37 --> 00:04:42 have had ongoing relationships with therapy and medication that have been amazing
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 and have changed their lives, but nothing up to that point.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 So I answered her question, and as soon as she asked the question,
00:04:47 --> 00:04:51 she basically went on to another conversation altogether. And so I was just
00:04:51 --> 00:04:56 kind of left there thinking, what do I not know?
00:04:56 --> 00:05:02 And so my mother, just for a little bit of backstory, my mom lives in Florida,
00:05:02 --> 00:05:04 which is where you are right now.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:09 And every summer for the last 32 years since they've been, since my mom and
00:05:09 --> 00:05:12 stepdad have been down in Florida, they come to Boston where we are and they
00:05:12 --> 00:05:16 spend three months with us. So mom was here when that whole thing happened.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 So I think it was the next day, maybe.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:24 Right, mom? Maybe the next day or two later when you and I were out for lunch. Lunch.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:30 I did not automatically pick up the phone and call you and say,
00:05:30 --> 00:05:33 what the hell did Kathy just say?
00:05:33 --> 00:05:38 What is this mental illness she's talking about? I didn't say that. I didn't think that.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:42 But clearly it was in my subconscious because you and I were having lunch just
00:05:42 --> 00:05:43 a mile away from my house.
00:05:44 --> 00:05:47 And we were just talking, just talking the way we always used to talk,
00:05:47 --> 00:05:48 which is reminiscing about dad.
00:05:48 --> 00:05:52 Dad came up and I don't know what it was. I just, in that moment,
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 that conversation the day before must have been somewhere on my brain because
00:05:56 --> 00:05:59 out of nowhere, I blurted out, was dad depressed before he died?
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 And it was nothing I ever really thought of.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:08 And your reaction to that was yes. My mom didn't hesitate for a second to say yes.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:15 And then, Natasha, this has to go down for me in my life as the single strangest
00:06:15 --> 00:06:16 experience I've ever had.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:20 I didn't know the question was coming out of my mouth. I didn't plan on asking it.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:26 It wasn't in my brain, consciously anyway, out of nowhere. I just said, did Daddy take his life?
00:06:26 --> 00:06:30 And she was sitting across from me. And, Mom, I don't even think I remember
00:06:30 --> 00:06:31 you hesitating for a second.
00:06:32 --> 00:06:37 I did. You just looked me straight in the eye, and you said yes.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 And we're sitting in a coffee shop and we were
00:06:41 --> 00:06:44 like in the process of getting up and leaving when it came out of
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 my mouth and when you answered and that was
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 a time that was that was a moment that I don't think either one of us will ever
00:06:52 --> 00:06:58 forget because we somehow managed to walk to my car and would you say it's fair
00:06:58 --> 00:07:04 to say that we were in my car crying and kind of talking it all through hours, hours.
00:07:04 --> 00:07:11 We sat in my car and nothing was ever the same after that. I,
00:07:12 --> 00:07:16 I found out the truth, the story that he had taken his own life at home and
00:07:16 --> 00:07:17 that my mom had found him.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:22 I was at day camp. I was coming home on the bus that afternoon,
00:07:22 --> 00:07:26 and my mom had to do all the things that you have to do when someone passes away,
00:07:26 --> 00:07:33 like have them taken out of the home and deal with a funeral home and call the family.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:39 And it was... What was that like for you, Lisa, in that moment when she asked
00:07:39 --> 00:07:45 you that question? because I had a similar situation with my daughter a few months ago.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:50 So in that moment when she asked you that question, what did you feel inside?
00:07:51 --> 00:07:54 What did your heart say? What did your brain say?
00:07:55 --> 00:08:02 When who asked me which question? When Lisa asked you if Jim had taken his life,
00:08:02 --> 00:08:04 what did you feel inside?
00:08:04 --> 00:08:09 Did you have any visceral response? Or what was that like for you?
00:08:09 --> 00:08:13 No, because I just blurted it out that it was true.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 I didn't think beyond that.
00:08:18 --> 00:08:26 It just was like a little sledgehammer hitting me, and I just had to say the truth. Yes.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:31 I was stunned maybe for a,
00:08:33 --> 00:08:40 I just had to be honest, because I felt if I was ever asked,
00:08:40 --> 00:08:44 especially by Lisa, that I would give her the truth.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:51 Well, it's interesting because, Nosh, it's interesting because you remember
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 you made two promises to yourself back when Daddy died.
00:08:54 --> 00:09:01 And you made the promise to commit to telling me that he had a heart attack
00:09:01 --> 00:09:06 and to keeping the real story hidden from me so it didn't cause me pain.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:12 But the second promise was, if I ever asked, you would never lie to me.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:14 You would always tell me the truth. But there would have been no reason for
00:09:14 --> 00:09:18 me to ask because I was 10 years old. My father was a super,
00:09:18 --> 00:09:22 super athletic, active, healthy man, except for the fact that he smoked three
00:09:22 --> 00:09:26 packs of Marlboros every day, like everybody else's dad did.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:32 And so, right. So knowing that there was a lot of heart disease that ran on
00:09:32 --> 00:09:35 my father's side of the family, and he also smoked and dying of a heart attack.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 Yeah. Right. Like, dying of a heart attack, like, that was a narrative that,
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 why would I question that?
00:09:41 --> 00:09:45 Why would I ever have a reason to question that? So it was kind of a foolproof
00:09:45 --> 00:09:53 plan that should never have been revealed, except for the fact that apparently,
00:09:53 --> 00:09:59 unbeknownst to the two of us, everybody on my father's side of the family,
00:09:59 --> 00:10:03 for the 35 years that my mother kept the secret, that I didn't know,
00:10:04 --> 00:10:05 that it was never discussed with anyone,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:11 my entire side of the family on my father's side knew the truth about the suicide
00:10:11 --> 00:10:16 they knew that he had taken his life and no one said a word to my mom and no
00:10:16 --> 00:10:19 one said a word to me my uncle.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:26 My, well, it's my, I guess my great uncle, but my father's uncle was the family doctor.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 And he was the one that came to the house to pronounce my father.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:36 And either he saw the note that was under the pillow in the bed where my father
00:10:36 --> 00:10:42 passed away, or he knew something that he wasn't telling us. He knew it was a suicide.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 And he went back and told the thing. Do you mind if I ask what method he used?
00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 You don't want to share that? You don't have to. No, it's fine.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:53 It's fine. It's my father took pills. He overdosed on pills.
00:10:54 --> 00:11:01 So, my suspicion is that, Mom, do you know, this is a perfect person to ask.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:07 So, little bit of history, leading up to my father passing away.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:12 My dad had been a bit depressed, had been seeing a therapist.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:16 We don't know if he prescribed any medication for dad. No, I don't believe.
00:11:16 --> 00:11:22 Okay. Oh, maybe the doctor. The therapist that he was seeing? No. I don't know.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:27 The therapist, no. Okay. So the only other thing that it could have been was
00:11:27 --> 00:11:32 that my father had had dental surgery, like extensive dental surgery a day or
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 two or three before he died. And he was very uncomfortable.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:39 And that's, he planned, this whole thing was orchestrated.
00:11:39 --> 00:11:43 So we lived in a split level house, bedrooms upstairs, living room,
00:11:43 --> 00:11:47 upstairs, kitchen, and downstairs, a traditional family room that had a pullout couch.
00:11:47 --> 00:11:55 So the night before he died, he told my mother that he was going to be watching
00:11:55 --> 00:11:57 the Red Sox play. It was like a late evening game.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:00 He didn't want to wake her up because he was going to have to take medication
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 because he had been uncomfortable. And I'll watch the game and I'll sleep on
00:12:03 --> 00:12:09 the pullout sofa downstairs so that I don't wake you up when I take my meds.
00:12:09 --> 00:12:11 Well, that whole thing was obviously orchestrated.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:19 So that was really how everything happened. So we assume that he definitely had written a note.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:25 It was a very short note that my mom said in the last episode that she read it.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:29 She found it. She read it and ripped it up and flushed it down the toilet so
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 I would never accidentally find it.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:37 Right. So it was clear that it was intentional.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:43 And nothing was ever found, though, right, in terms of pills? No, nothing was found.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:51 Nothing. Yeah. And the irony is that, and I've never spoken about this before, actually.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 We had a gun in the house. We had a gun in the house.
00:12:55 --> 00:13:02 My father, and I mentioned this in the last episode, my father was an import
00:13:02 --> 00:13:06 exporter in Boston, worked for a company, but also had a job kind of running
00:13:06 --> 00:13:07 the family real estate business.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:11 And so dad was always responsible for like going and collecting the rent at
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 all these businesses. And so my father was a licensed gun owner.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:20 And I didn't even realize that my father had a gun in the house, but he did.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:23 And, of course, you surrendered it to the police right after he died because
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 you'd want a gun in the house. Oh, right to the police station,
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 because no way was I going to leave that in the house.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:34 Right, but he didn't use that.
00:13:34 --> 00:13:39 I was grateful for that, that he did not use that. I was going to say,
00:13:39 --> 00:13:41 he knew you would be the one to find him.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:44 Oh, yeah. And he didn't want to do that.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 So, you know, having five brothers who have died by suicide,
00:13:49 --> 00:13:52 four of the five have been self-inflicted gunshot wounds. They have.
00:13:53 --> 00:14:01 Yes. And the most recent one, three of the four were to the head.
00:14:02 --> 00:14:06 And then the most recent one, Monroe, he actually shot himself in the heart. Yeah.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:16 And I know that he did that for my mom so that she could say goodbye to him,
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 so that she could actually mourn him. Because with the others,
00:14:19 --> 00:14:22 the two most recent, we couldn't see their face.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:28 We had to say goodbye to hands and feet. They kept them wrapped.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:33 And seeing how hard that was for the rest of us and not being able to see the
00:14:33 --> 00:14:37 face and say goodbye, I know that's what he did. And so, you know,
00:14:37 --> 00:14:41 having gone through that, I can honestly say that, Jim, knowing you,
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43 Sandy, would be the one to find him.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:47 He did not want to do that to you because that is an image that will be with
00:14:47 --> 00:14:48 you for the rest of your life.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:55 So in his way, that was his last way of protecting him, protecting you. You're right.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 That's interesting. It's so funny. Because I've never talked about that piece
00:14:59 --> 00:15:05 publicly until now, that's an interesting way to look at it that I really hadn't thought of.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:12 And what my father didn't know, could never have known, is that what my mother
00:15:12 --> 00:15:17 did at his funeral was something that was not done at funeral.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:24 So we're Jewish, and in the Jewish religion, there is no wake. You don't wake someone.
00:15:25 --> 00:15:30 You have your service and the coffin is there and very occasionally immediate
00:15:30 --> 00:15:36 family can view the person prior to the service, but it's always closed casket.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:43 Well, I was 10 years old and it was not even conceivable that I would have seen my father.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:49 So there was no viewing, but my mother knew that I wanted to see him and knew
00:15:49 --> 00:15:53 that I needed to see him for some kind of closure.
00:15:55 --> 00:16:02 Yeah, I wasn't there when he died. And so, plus my mother, we both broke a couple of...
00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 Judaism rules that day. You buried him with his wedding ring,
00:16:07 --> 00:16:08 which was not something that you're supposed to do.
00:16:09 --> 00:16:13 And I had written all these notes on that. Remember that little white pad of
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 paper you used to have in the kitchen by the phone?
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 I wrote him all these notes.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 And then I wrote... You put them in his pocket.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:25 Yeah, I wrote notes to God, asking God to take care of my father.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:27 And I wanted to put them in his pocket.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:33 And so ironically, had he ever used the gun that was in the house,
00:16:33 --> 00:16:34 we never would have been able to do that.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:40 And so I did, you fought with the rabbi and you said, this is happening.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 This needs to happen. And it did. And I'm so grateful for that.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:49 I mean, it was one of the hardest experiences of my life, but I can't imagine
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 not having been able to do that for closure in that way.
00:16:53 --> 00:16:58 Oh yeah. As a tenure. You needed your brain to see your brain, your child brain.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:04 And me, as a grown adult, I did not get to see Brandon before he was cremated.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:10 And my brain still to this day, three years later, has a hard time recognizing
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 that he is dead. Yeah. Really?
00:17:14 --> 00:17:16 Yeah. I can understand this.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:25 Yeah. Because my oldest brother made the decision to cremate him without us getting to see a body.
00:17:25 --> 00:17:30 Oh, wow. Even if you can't see the face, but seeing the body is psychologically
00:17:30 --> 00:17:34 important for your brain to make that connection.
00:17:34 --> 00:17:39 It was. So I was grateful for that. I was really grateful for that. Yeah.
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 But, Mom, if going to the new rabbi.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:53 He was a new rabbi, yeah, yeah. Going back to that issue of secret coming out
00:17:53 --> 00:17:59 and you and I having the first real honest conversation about how dad died in that moment,
00:17:59 --> 00:18:02 which is now 13 years ago. It's been a long, long time.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:09 For me, in that moment, I know,
00:18:10 --> 00:18:16 I remember that moment so vividly, how devastated you were to have to share
00:18:16 --> 00:18:21 something with me that you knew would cause me so much pain.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 And you were so hard on yourself.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:32 You wanted to tell me the truth and be honest with me, but you also didn't want
00:18:32 --> 00:18:36 to tell me the truth and be honest because of what that would lead to.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:41 But it's so interesting. I go back to that moment a lot in my mind for a couple
00:18:41 --> 00:18:43 of reasons. The first one is that.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:50 I felt so grateful that I knew the truth because now I could be there to help
00:18:50 --> 00:18:54 support you and you could actually talk about it and you could have your turn
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 to grieve it and process it for what it really was.
00:18:59 --> 00:19:05 And also because it truly is the point in my life that I can look back here
00:19:05 --> 00:19:11 and now and say that time, that moment, that day changed the course of the rest of my life.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:19 And the work that I do and how I show up in the world and how I understand mental illness.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:23 And it brought me a sense of relief in a weird, weird way.
00:19:23 --> 00:19:29 Like I, I always had, I never questioned the story until I had reason to,
00:19:29 --> 00:19:40 but I also just had this strange knowing in my bones somehow that something wasn't right.
00:19:40 --> 00:19:47 And it's interesting. So mom, you and I talk about this a lot, that I'm an empath.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:53 I'm a really highly sensitive person. I feel everything around me so deeply, so acutely.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 And for a long, long time, that was a burden for me.
00:19:56 --> 00:20:01 I mean, it was so much, so heavy at times that I just wanted to shut it off
00:20:01 --> 00:20:02 and I couldn't shut it off.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:08 And it started making me question my own wiring. Like, is something wrong with me? Is there something?
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 What does it say about me? And I don't know.
00:20:13 --> 00:20:17 There was just this inexplicable clarity that I got that, okay,
00:20:17 --> 00:20:24 I know now that dad had mental illness and he was masking his depression and
00:20:24 --> 00:20:27 that I have some of that genetic material in me,
00:20:28 --> 00:20:33 but it made me realize what I do have and what I don't have.
00:20:33 --> 00:20:40 I'm not where dad was. I may feel things and I may experience things in a very
00:20:40 --> 00:20:41 deep way. It's different.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:46 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of the Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:50 If you're listening right now and you're not okay, if you're feeling overwhelmed,
00:20:51 --> 00:20:55 stuck, or like you're carrying more than you can handle, please know you don't
00:20:55 --> 00:20:56 have to go through it alone.
00:20:56 --> 00:21:03 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:12 Reaching out is a brave first step and you owe it to yourself because your life
00:21:12 --> 00:21:18 matters your story matters and help is always just three numbers away.
00:21:21 --> 00:21:25 It is different. It's different. It is. And look at your giving back.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:30 You're doing so much to try to help other people.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:32 And that's a big thing.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:37 Trying to. In life the way things are today, that's a big thing.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:42 To give back, to care about other people, the health pub, you know,
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 caring someone like Natasha, wonderful girl.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 I know. I listen. I watch.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 She's our biggest fan by the way i know she
00:21:54 --> 00:21:57 is sandy so after you finally
00:21:57 --> 00:22:03 told lisa the truth was there a sense of relief for you did you just feel like
00:22:03 --> 00:22:09 you could breathe like the truth is out and it just yeah tell me walk me through
00:22:09 --> 00:22:16 what that was like for you in a way it was a relief but it was almost,
00:22:18 --> 00:22:27 in a way too easy it came out so quickly there was no chance for me to overthink
00:22:27 --> 00:22:33 it what would I say if she said I mean by that time she,
00:22:34 --> 00:22:42 I felt that I had to be honest I mean there was just there was no buffer is
00:22:42 --> 00:22:44 what I'm trying to say and,
00:22:44 --> 00:22:50 I just had to say, you're right. He did take his life.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:59 And I could say it took a weight off my shoulders, but in a way it didn't,
00:22:59 --> 00:23:06 because I had been balancing it all those years in my own life. It just...
00:23:08 --> 00:23:14 There was a little bit of overwhelm there, I think because I didn't expect it to come out like that.
00:23:14 --> 00:23:20 I remember the day that it came out, and I already shared that you and I were
00:23:20 --> 00:23:24 in my car for hours, you kind of walking me through everything.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:30 And we were so, so highly emotional and fragile in that moment.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:36 And I remember you being, you know, you were in your 70s, and it was a lot.
00:23:36 --> 00:23:43 And it was such an intense experience. And I remember after hours and hours
00:23:43 --> 00:23:46 of going through everything and being so emotional, I finally said,
00:23:46 --> 00:23:49 you know, let's just take a minute.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:54 I want you to be able to just have a minute to process everything.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:57 And because the whole thing took you completely by surprise,
00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 me asking you the question after 35 years.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:04 And so I remember driving you home to the house and I'll never forget.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:10 So our guest room was downstairs and I brought you downstairs and the kids,
00:24:10 --> 00:24:14 I think, were at school or camp and David was in his office.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 And I brought you downstairs and I just remember you sat on the bed and I hugged you.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:23 And I just, I remembered you, I just knew that you were so upset with yourself
00:24:23 --> 00:24:29 for saying it only because of how much pain it was going to cause me and how
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31 drastically it was going to change.
00:24:31 --> 00:24:35 And maybe in some ways rewrite my history that I knew to be true.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:39 And then I remember walking out of the room and I said to David,
00:24:39 --> 00:24:43 I need you to, I need you to come in the car with me. I need to go for a drive right now.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:50 And I didn't want to leave you in that place by yourself in that room because
00:24:50 --> 00:24:51 I knew you were so upset at yourself.
00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 I did because I felt like you also needed just a minute. It was such an intense experience.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:01 And I remember I got in the car. The second David looked at me in the eye,
00:25:01 --> 00:25:05 he said, what is going on? He said, what is going on?
00:25:05 --> 00:25:08 And I said, I need to talk to you. I just found out something.
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 And, you know, his first reaction, I remember, was actually,
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 well, how do you, like, he wasn't trying to dispute anything.
00:25:16 --> 00:25:21 He just was trying to clarify. How do you know? Like, he was like, is she sure?
00:25:21 --> 00:25:25 Like, how do we know that? And I said, I'll never forget, I said,
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 she said he left a note and he was like, oh, shit.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:34 You know, that was his first like, oh, damn. Okay. So this is really true.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:40 And I just remember the surrealness of the whole thing. The whole experience
00:25:40 --> 00:25:41 was just so unbelievably numbing and surreal.
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 I cried myself to sleep, I think, for three years after that.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:47 And I've talked a lot about that.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:53 But didn't go to therapy right away, didn't start talking about it kind of in
00:25:53 --> 00:26:01 my mainstream life for years until I really kind of let that narrative become
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 what it was, which was the truth.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:08 And you can't just rewire yourself like that instantly. It affects everything.
00:26:08 --> 00:26:09 You start thinking back.
00:26:09 --> 00:26:15 No, you can't. Look, I was my own therapist. I really was my own therapist because
00:26:15 --> 00:26:19 I couldn't unburden myself to anybody.
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24 And I didn't. But you're speaking out now.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:30 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So do you consider yourself a mental health advocate, Sandy?
00:26:31 --> 00:26:41 Yeah, in a way I do. Because I feel that they've made so much progress with mental health now.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:47 And there are options for people that there were not options before because
00:26:47 --> 00:26:52 you didn't talk about it we used to have when i was growing up as a little kid
00:26:52 --> 00:26:56 we had a place nearby near our school,
00:26:58 --> 00:27:05 that was it was awful because the title that they gave it it was a mental health facility,
00:27:07 --> 00:27:13 The kids and the neighbors always used to call it the crazy house. That was the name of it.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:20 I remember we would walk to school and, you know, kids, they would look and
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 they'd look away and they'd whisper.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:32 And the same problems that affect people today are the same problems that affected people then.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:37 But they had no way to deal with it. They dealt with it with electric shock,
00:27:37 --> 00:27:45 and they did have therapists, but not in abundance. There were not a lot of therapists.
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 And people weren't talking about it in the mainstream, so it was completely
00:27:49 --> 00:27:54 taboo, and you were shunned if you admitted you were mentally ill or if you
00:27:54 --> 00:27:58 had depression. Your family was shunned as well, yes. Absolutely, absolutely.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:03 Which, you bet. Why do you, it's so interesting, like your perspective,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:10 I think, is fascinating because you had the experience of losing your spouse to suicide.
00:28:11 --> 00:28:17 Keeping that secret because you knew the optics of that truth would have been
00:28:17 --> 00:28:21 very damaging for me emotionally and family reputation and all those things.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:26 And now you're living in a world where people are talking openly where your
00:28:26 --> 00:28:31 own daughter is sharing your story our story openly or,
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 Why now, like having had the experience of living in a world where it was so
00:28:36 --> 00:28:40 taboo and now you live in a world where everyone is prioritizing mental health,
00:28:40 --> 00:28:47 everyone is saying I'm a survivor or I suffer from depression or PTSD or bipolar
00:28:47 --> 00:28:48 disorder, whatever it is.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:53 Why do you think it's important to talk about it now?
00:28:53 --> 00:28:58 Because the answer now is there's an option for survival.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:04 There's an option for somebody to make another choice, not just to say it's
00:29:04 --> 00:29:11 over, but to say, well, it's not what I want, but I have to think about it.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:17 What do I want? What kind of a life can I make for myself? And if it's not just
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 for me, if it's for a child, if it's for a parent, you do.
00:29:24 --> 00:29:30 You're more negative when it comes to, am I going to help my family?
00:29:31 --> 00:29:39 Am I going to help my friends? Am I going to give somebody an option for a decent life?
00:29:39 --> 00:29:44 You have to think of all these things. And a lot of times, if you do think them
00:29:44 --> 00:29:51 through, you might say to yourself, you know, I can still make a life.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 I can still do something. I can still help people.
00:29:55 --> 00:29:57 Instead of... Well, would you agree...
00:29:58 --> 00:30:05 Would you agree now at this point in your life and in this point in kind of
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 the evolution of the world and the way we talk about things,
00:30:08 --> 00:30:16 would you at this point say that it's critical for people to talk about what's
00:30:16 --> 00:30:21 going on on the inside because that's how people can help you?
00:30:21 --> 00:30:26 That's how you can find help. And you don't say, nobody will know.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:32 You keep it to yourself. That's not helping you. But if you talk to somebody, you have a good friend.
00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 Sometimes you talk to the man you live with.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:41 Sometimes you talk to the woman you live with. And you're honest with them.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 And you tell them that you're at a breaking point.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:51 And you can talk about it freely. That's a big, big help. Instead of keeping it in.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:56 Today you can talk about anything. You know that. You can talk about anything.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:03 Young couples that want to be together, they can talk about the fact that they
00:31:03 --> 00:31:09 want to be together, whether they're boy and girl, girl and girl, boy and boy.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:15 It doesn't matter. If you're happy and you're making a life for yourself, that should be it.
00:31:17 --> 00:31:23 If sharing your story, your story, our story, right, Could help somebody who's
00:31:23 --> 00:31:28 struggling right now, someone who's listening to this conversation right now,
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30 who is struggling, what would you want them to know?
00:31:31 --> 00:31:37 I'd want them to know that they can keep going on with their lives.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:42 They can talk about their problem. They can talk to a friend.
00:31:43 --> 00:31:48 You can't just say it's over. A lot of people who have a terrible,
00:31:49 --> 00:31:53 serious illness, they don't take their life.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:59 They try to have something to help them, a medication, a doctor.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:05 Why can't you have a friend listen to you? And if you don't have a friend,
00:32:05 --> 00:32:08 you call a number. That's what it's there for.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:12 They don't know who you are. You're talking about 988.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:18 Yes, absolutely. 988, you call, you speak to somebody, you say,
00:32:18 --> 00:32:22 I'm having this terrible problem. I'm very, very worried that I might do something
00:32:22 --> 00:32:26 I'll be sorry for, or my family will be sorry for.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 It's important that you do this. that you...
00:32:30 --> 00:32:37 I think what I'm hearing, what I think I'm hearing is the message in what you're
00:32:37 --> 00:32:42 saying is whatever it is that you might be feeling right now,
00:32:42 --> 00:32:45 if you're not okay, or you know somebody who isn't okay,
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 is that... You're not going to feel the way always.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:53 That's it. You just got it. That's it. That it's not permanent.
00:32:54 --> 00:32:58 It's not permanent. These are blips in our lives. They just are very heavy,
00:32:58 --> 00:33:03 hard, all-consuming blips that we feel are all-consuming in the moment.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:11 But there is another side. There is an opportunity to change what's happening.
00:33:11 --> 00:33:15 There is a way to find hope in your life. Oh, absolutely. If you're open about
00:33:15 --> 00:33:20 what's going on in your heart and in your mind. So...
00:33:21 --> 00:33:26 As we start to kind of wrap up this conversation, I'm just curious if,
00:33:26 --> 00:33:31 and I don't know if I can even say this without crying, but if dad could hear
00:33:31 --> 00:33:35 our conversation right now, what would you want him to know?
00:33:36 --> 00:33:39 Oh, that's easy. He didn't have to go.
00:33:40 --> 00:33:45 He could have stayed and made a life. Didn't have to be working the way he thought
00:33:45 --> 00:33:48 he would. We would have survived.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:53 We would have. And he would have had the joy of watching you grow up.
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 And watching you as a young woman and as a mother.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 That's what I wish that he had had.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:09 Well, we're doing the work we're doing, you and I together, and Natasha and
00:34:09 --> 00:34:16 you and I, all of us are having conversations like this so that somebody else
00:34:16 --> 00:34:18 won't make the same decision that dad made. That's right.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:23 And that's really the bottom line of everything that we're doing right now.
00:34:23 --> 00:34:25 And certainly what we're doing with this podcast.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:30 There's another day and you can help somebody else. Oh my God, how wonderful is that?
00:34:31 --> 00:34:39 But Natasha is a wonderful young woman, and I think she's got a lot of life in her. I do. She does.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:46 She does. Yeah, I think she does. She's a wonderful person.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:53 I've listened and I've seen. And you have family, you have a husband,
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 and you just count your blessings, you know?
00:34:57 --> 00:35:02 Well, that's the thing I think that not enough people do is spend time in a place of gratitude.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:09 And I think that that can be such an antidote for so many different things. I know it has been for me.
00:35:09 --> 00:35:13 You know, we all default to thinking about the things that aren't working and
00:35:13 --> 00:35:14 the things that we don't have or that we want.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:21 And we forget about what we do have and who is in our life and what we have been able to do.
00:35:22 --> 00:35:27 And I think that's a powerful mind shift that can change a lot of things for a lot of people. Bye.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:32 I'm just grateful. In the moment, I'm grateful that you're here to have this
00:35:32 --> 00:35:36 conversation with because I'm going to say it right here and now.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:41 This is my favorite conversation of the past four years is having it.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:43 Four years, sorry, four seasons.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 Eventually, it'll be four years that we've been doing this podcast,
00:35:47 --> 00:35:51 but right now it's a year, and this is season four, and this is my favorite conversation.
00:35:52 --> 00:35:57 And, Mom, I love you for having the courage to come here and talk about it in
00:35:57 --> 00:36:03 this way and to be so vulnerable about the way you felt, the way you feel now.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:11 And I hope that as a takeaway, people will understand that conversations like
00:36:11 --> 00:36:13 this, this is how we change the stigma.
00:36:14 --> 00:36:18 We break it, you know, for so many years. Getting to your own life this way.
00:36:19 --> 00:36:24 Yep. For so many years, suicide lived in silence in families just like ours.
00:36:24 --> 00:36:27 But this is how we change it. And I'm grateful that you were open to having
00:36:27 --> 00:36:29 the conversation. Because you're modeling.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:32 I mean, you're 87 years old, almost 88 years old. and you're modeling right
00:36:32 --> 00:36:36 here and now for everybody who's listening that it's not too late to share your
00:36:36 --> 00:36:37 experience for the benefit of other people.
00:36:38 --> 00:36:43 So if even one person hearing this conversation feels less alone and feels like
00:36:43 --> 00:36:46 they can find hope, then we're winning.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:50 And that's the whole point. And there is hope. There is hope.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:53 It's not always – life is not always perfect.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:56 And we just have to do the best we can with what we're given.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:04 You know, that's true. That is the truth. And sometimes all it is is just finding one reason to stay.
00:37:04 --> 00:37:09 You bet. You bet. Mm-hmm. Because then it will grow into more.
00:37:09 --> 00:37:14 But if you can just find just one small reason to stay, and for me, that's my children.
00:37:15 --> 00:37:19 That's right. You bet. That's a great reason. That's a wonderful reason,
00:37:20 --> 00:37:21 honey. That's about the best you could have.
00:37:22 --> 00:37:27 Yeah. Yeah. So next week, we will be back with another special guest.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:33 Who is not my mom. And until then, I love you and thank you.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:34 We'll just keep surviving.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:39 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:44 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:49 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:37:53 --> 00:37:57 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:37:57 --> 00:37:58 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:37:59 --> 00:38:04 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:38:04 --> 00:38:07 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:38:07 --> 00:38:08 help is always out there.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:13 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:38:13 --> 00:38:17 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:38:17 --> 00:38:21 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:38:21 --> 00:38:25 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:38:25 --> 00:38:28 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:38:28 --> 00:38:33 Until then, take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.