*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide & trauma and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In this deeply personal episode of The Survivors, hosts Lisa and Natasha sit down with Heather Tobin, one of Lisa’s oldest friends, to remember someone Heather and Lisa both loved deeply: Heather’s first cousin and one of Lisa’s dearest lifelong friends, Steven Fox.
For the first time since Steven died by suicide on April 12, 2021, Lisa and Heather compare their experiences of receiving the devastating news, the shock of those first moments, and what it has meant to grieve the same person through two very different relationships. Heather knew Steven as her cousin, her hero, and someone she had looked up to throughout her life. Lisa knew him as one of her and her husband Dave’s oldest and closest friends—a friendship that stretched from childhood through adulthood, including living together after college and raising families whose lives remained deeply connected.
Together, Lisa and Heather remember who Steven was beyond the way he died and explore the complicated emotions that often follow suicide loss: disbelief, guilt, anger, unanswered questions, and the endless cycle of wondering what if?
Heather also opens up about her own struggles with depression, suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts—and how her lived experience shaped the way she understood and grieved Steven’s death.
This is an honest conversation about sharing the same profound loss, surviving unbearable pain, finding the courage to ask for help, and the role that advocacy, connection, and community can play in healing. Most importantly, it’s a chance to remember Steven not for how his life ended, but for how deeply he was loved and the impact he continues to have on the people he left behind.
Episode Sponsored by The HelpHUB™
Struggling with your mental health? Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to The HelpHUB™—your online destination for mental health resources, treatment options, content, and tools to help meet you exactly where you are in the moment. Visit TheHelpHUB.co to get started.
Takeaways
- The impact of losing a loved one to suicide
- Heather Tobin's personal journey and mental health struggles
- The importance of compassion and understanding in mental health
- Breaking stigma around suicide and mental illness
- The role of community and support in healing
- The significance of recognizing mental health issues early
- Strategies for coping with grief and loss
- The importance of self-care and seeking help
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction and Heather's connection to Steven 01:58 - Remembering Steven: His personality and heroism 05:53 - The shock of Steven's death and immediate reactions 09:57 - The moment Heather received the news and her emotional response 15:01 - Shared grief and the impact on Heather's mental health 19:59 - The importance of support and community in recovery 24:47 - Breaking the stigma: Suicide is an illness, not selfishness 30:08 - Heather's journey through mental health challenges and attempts 35:02 - Caring for mental health today: Self-care and ongoing support 40:03 - The power of vulnerability and advocacy in mental health awareness 44:56 - Final thoughts: Hope, healing, and continuing the conversation
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- Surviving: Finding Hope After Suicide Loss (Familius Books)
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:12 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors. Real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together. Heather.
00:00:25 --> 00:00:30 Okay, this is a conversation that I'm really excited to have because it's really
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 personal for me. This is really, really personal for me.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:40 Our guest today is Heather Tobin. Heather is somebody who's been in my life
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 pretty much, I would say, forever.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 Was that is that accurate? Absolutely accurate, Lisa.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:53 So you and I are probably right now about three miles from each other.
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 We should have just done this together, but we're very close to each other.
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 We live adjacent to each other next door and down the road.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:04 And Heather, you and I, aside from sharing a lifelong friendship and about a
00:01:04 --> 00:01:05 million friends in common.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:13 Oh, yes. You and I also share a really, really profound loss in both of our
00:01:13 --> 00:01:19 lives because you and I have both lost the same person to suicide.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:21 I am so glad you're here, honey. Hi.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:28 Welcome to the pod. It is a joy to be here with you and Natasha. Thank you.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:32 Thank you so much. It's our pleasure. So I wanted to have this conversation
00:01:32 --> 00:01:33 with you for a while because,
00:01:34 --> 00:01:38 like I said, you lost your cousin, who was one of your best friends,
00:01:38 --> 00:01:44 and he also happened to be one of our best friends, Stephen Fox,
00:01:45 --> 00:01:46 the great, the one and only.
00:01:46 --> 00:01:50 And it's a pretty unique conversation, I think, for you and I to have because
00:01:51 --> 00:01:55 we're sharing what it was like to lose and grieve the same person,
00:01:55 --> 00:02:01 to suicide, somebody that we knew and that we loved each of us very much in our own way.
00:02:01 --> 00:02:09 So, just for a little context, Stephen was one of our, Dave and I,
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 one of our oldest and closest friends.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 We all lived together out of college in D.C. for a little bit.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 Our daughter, Riley, our oldest, was the flower girl at Stephen's wedding.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:24 Our families have been so close all these years, and he was just one of the
00:02:24 --> 00:02:26 dearest friends in our life.
00:02:28 --> 00:02:32 Stephen died by suicide on April 12th in 2021.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:38 Steve was your first cousin, but I know that that does not even come close to
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 describing what Stephen meant to you.
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 You always said that Stephen was your hero.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:51 Yeah. Always. Yeah. So before we kind of talk about Stephen and our relationships
00:02:51 --> 00:02:55 and kind of your version and my version of finding out that he was gone.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:00 When you think about Steve, I just want you to talk about him for a second.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:04 Because anybody who knows him who's listening to this already knows what an
00:03:04 --> 00:03:09 amazing human being Stephen was. But I don't want to talk for a second about
00:03:09 --> 00:03:10 how he died. I want to talk about how he lived.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 When you think of Stephen, what do you think of? What made him your hero?
00:03:16 --> 00:03:22 Kindness. Kindness. Hysterical humor. Mm-hmm.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:31 Complete brilliance. Yeah. And when we were young, he could be a little devil.
00:03:31 --> 00:03:35 We were eight months apart, so a bit of a daredevil.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:42 I think of him as just this incredible observer of life.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:47 He almost had that ability. He loved Seinfeld, and he sort of had that ability,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:53 to sum up a situation very similar to Jerry Seinfeld. Yeah.
00:03:54 --> 00:04:00 And I was from a very, very young age, you know, his hilarious nature,
00:04:01 --> 00:04:10 loyal, loyal, you know, as a friend, I know, as a cousin, you know, just loyal and there.
00:04:11 --> 00:04:16 He had this real mystique about him. I mean, you could know Stephen so,
00:04:16 --> 00:04:22 so well and that there's something I always found that he sort of kept to himself.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:26 There was sort of this quality about him and that was going back,
00:04:27 --> 00:04:32 I can remember, since I was a little, little girl. Yeah, yeah.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:38 And he just had this, also his ability to lead.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:45 And to truly move people, that was something else that really sticks out.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 People loved Stephen.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:54 You know, and this isn't the truth about everybody. I never met anyone that didn't like him. Yeah.
00:04:55 --> 00:05:00 He was just so lovable. Yeah, he was a special guy.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 And I know that one of the things that always used to stick out to me,
00:05:04 --> 00:05:07 because we spent so much time together when we lived together in D.C.,
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 So Dave and I were married, and we moved to D.C.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:15 For his job, and his company offered to give us a place to live.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:19 And Stephen had a roommate who left his apartment.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:22 And he's like, guys, come move in with me. And Riley was a baby.
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 Riley took her first steps in Stephen's apartment.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:29 And it was, we just had the time of our lives living together like that.
00:05:29 --> 00:05:33 So he and I spent so much time together. And one of the greatest gifts in the
00:05:33 --> 00:05:36 world was being able to make Stephen laugh.
00:05:37 --> 00:05:42 Like one of the it was such a triumph to make Stephen laugh because he was like
00:05:42 --> 00:05:47 one of the funniest people I'd ever met in my life and such a quirky sense of humor,
00:05:48 --> 00:05:52 so I love that you say he was like a mystique about him because there absolutely
00:05:52 --> 00:05:56 was and and you and I understand that and hopefully people will also kind of
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 get that sense when they listen but,
00:05:58 --> 00:06:03 to to kind of move into the story, our story together.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:10 You know, one of the hardest ways that, you know, we deal with suicide loss,
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 is in terms of like how sudden it can be.
00:06:14 --> 00:06:18 One of the hardest things is the suddenness of it, especially when you have
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 absolutely no idea that someone is struggling and none of us,
00:06:21 --> 00:06:28 friend group, family, parents, no one had any idea that Stephen was struggling. And...
00:06:30 --> 00:06:35 The way that everything happened was so very, very quick.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:43 And I want you to share where you were, what was going on, what was it like,
00:06:43 --> 00:06:48 who told you, how did it all happen for you? And then we can kind of compare stories.
00:06:49 --> 00:06:52 Because I know it was an absolute, complete and total shock to all of us.
00:06:53 --> 00:06:57 It was a shock. It was a shock. You know, I'll say this too.
00:06:57 --> 00:07:05 Six weeks before he took his life, I received kind of an odd text from him saying,
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 Heather, if I ever failed you,
00:07:10 --> 00:07:19 and I'm so sorry, and if I ever was not totally understanding of your depression,
00:07:20 --> 00:07:21 may I endeavor to do better.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:28 And at the time I didn't think of it, now I think of it a lot more,
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 and I said, you could never fail me.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:35 I adore you and have since birth. Yeah.
00:07:37 --> 00:07:40 I didn't know that. Did you know that in all, I mean, it's been over five years
00:07:40 --> 00:07:45 since Stephen's been gone, and you and I have had thousands of conversations about him.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:48 I didn't know that. Wow. Yes.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:56 Yeah. No, it was, it's especially poignant now, you know, and at the time I
00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 didn't think of it, but it was a little off script for Stephen.
00:07:59 --> 00:08:02 And now I kind of think he was saying goodbye.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:10 He might have been. I got that feeling. But let's see, you know, so I had just come home.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:15 I was living in New Hampshire, you know, my then now ex-husband.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:23 And I had just come home from my friend who's a hairdresser, having my hair all done.
00:08:23 --> 00:08:28 And at the time, you know, I was actually doing a podcast about chronic illness.
00:08:28 --> 00:08:33 And I was just getting ready to hop on and record a show.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:40 And the phone rang. And it was about 5 p.m.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:44 So it was on a Monday. It was a Monday.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:49 It was a Monday. It was such a beautiful day. And I picked it up.
00:08:49 --> 00:08:57 And it was my mom. And she could barely get it out. She was sobbing so much.
00:08:58 --> 00:08:59 Stephen killed himself.
00:09:02 --> 00:09:07 And I said, what? What? What? Honey, he killed him so.
00:09:09 --> 00:09:13 And I literally dropped to the floor.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:20 I dropped to the floor. I fell over. It was like getting, it was so physical and visceral.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:24 It was like getting just punched in the gut.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:34 And I was hysterical. My then husband, he just sort of came and he grabbed me.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:42 I was hysterical. absolutely in such incredible shock i i couldn't believe it
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 i i couldn't believe it it's like being in an,
00:09:46 --> 00:09:52 alternate universe where everything is completely upside down and this can't
00:09:52 --> 00:09:58 be true and it's like no no it can't be true it can't be true and then i think i caught i called scott,
00:09:59 --> 00:10:03 well it's funny that that you say you called because i want to hear what you're
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 experiencing thing was yeah yeah,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:12 so for me we were home riley our oldest was at college at the time she was at
00:10:12 --> 00:10:16 boston university we were living just north of boston and our youngest libby
00:10:16 --> 00:10:20 was just home in her bedroom and dave was downstairs in the office i think it was,
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 i think it might have been april break or it was she was home for some reason
00:10:24 --> 00:10:30 so dave was downstairs hosting some big all-hands conference call,
00:10:31 --> 00:10:35 And the kind of the family rule is always, you know, you don't go downstairs,
00:10:35 --> 00:10:40 when dad's on a call because dad's on a call and it'll disrupt everything.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:42 So unless it was like something urgent, which it almost never was,
00:10:42 --> 00:10:43 you don't go downstairs.
00:10:44 --> 00:10:49 So I'm sitting on the couch and a call came in on my phone, my cell, and it was an L.A.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:52 Number. Now, the friend that you're talking about, our friend Scott.
00:10:53 --> 00:10:57 Was we all grew up together. He has been out in L.A. for 30 plus years and I
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 have all of his numbers. Every number says Scott. This did not say Scott,
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 but it said L.A. And it was weird to me.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 And normally I just would have dismissed it. I would have just declined the
00:11:05 --> 00:11:10 call. And for some reason, I don't know why, I picked up the call,
00:11:10 --> 00:11:11 having no idea that it was Scotty.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 He did not immediately, he didn't sound right. Something was off.
00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 He was very serious, which he seldom is just serious like that.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 And he said, Lisa, I need to ask you a question. Did Stephen take his life?
00:11:24 --> 00:11:29 And I'm like, just like that. And I'm listening to him and I'm like, what? Stephen who?
00:11:29 --> 00:11:34 My first response, Stephen who? of course no idea what he could be talking about
00:11:34 --> 00:11:39 the thought that he was talking about our steven was completely impossible to
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 me so it didn't even enter my brain,
00:11:41 --> 00:11:47 and i was like who are you talking about he's like our steven steven fox and
00:11:47 --> 00:11:51 i was like what are you talking what how what i know nothing like i was very
00:11:51 --> 00:11:55 close with his wife with his parents live up the road we're all very very close.
00:11:55 --> 00:11:59 Our whole friend circle from high school is still extraordinarily close.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 Hadn't heard a word. I said, this is impossible. I don't know what you're talking
00:12:03 --> 00:12:08 about. He told me how he heard that one of his best friends worked at the firm where Stephen worked.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:14 They called a big meeting and informed everyone that the reason why Stephen
00:12:14 --> 00:12:18 had not been responding to people was because he had died. He had taken his
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 life. And the friend came and told the friend who told Scott and the whole thing
00:12:22 --> 00:12:23 was like a big game of telephone.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:28 So I'm on the phone with him sitting there going crazy on the internet,
00:12:28 --> 00:12:33 looking at like his Facebook page and looking at text messages.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 And I immediately texted his wife, no answer.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:42 And he's like, I'm going to call his parents. I have to call his parents and ask.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 So he hangs up. He says, I'm going to call you back.
00:12:46 --> 00:12:49 I run downstairs right in the middle of Dave's call. And I said,
00:12:50 --> 00:12:50 you need to hang up right now.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:55 And he's like, what are you talking about? He said, you need to hang up right now.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:01 He hangs up. He's like, what the hell is going on? I said, Scott just called.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:05 Stephen took his life. And first thing out of Dave's mouth is, Steve who?
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 You know like what who are you talking about and i explained to him what scott
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 explained to me and we sat upstairs basically holding each other looking all
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 over you know dave is looking all over the internet we're trying to call people
00:13:17 --> 00:13:20 who might know without getting people panicked if it's not true,
00:13:21 --> 00:13:28 and about 20 minutes later which seemed like three days scott called back and
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 he said i talked to his dad and it's true,
00:13:32 --> 00:13:35 and we by this point you know libby's out of her bedroom what's going on.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:44 And it was just one of the strangest, most surreal experiences of my life.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:50 I mean, we're very, very close with them and with their kids, their two daughters.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:53 And I don't think, I think within
00:13:53 --> 00:13:59 two hours, we were packed in the car and driving to D.C. to be with them.
00:14:00 --> 00:14:05 And you know of course like trying to contact everyone and and and people flying
00:14:05 --> 00:14:11 from all over the country to to dc to meet us to be there and that was our experience oh,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:20 i never knew how and that's so brutal and you know it yeah it's beyond comprehension,
00:14:21 --> 00:14:27 it was beyond comprehension isn't it just my god yeah i mean it's strange after
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 all these years that you and i never really kind of compared notes on what that
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 holds because we were together for the whole thing yet,
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 interesting that we just never knew kind of what each other's immediate experience
00:14:38 --> 00:14:45 was it was and for us too and our family i think we were told it maybe it's
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 so many things get misconnected and miscommunicated,
00:14:49 --> 00:14:53 that the understanding was that there was not going to be a service and so we're
00:14:53 --> 00:14:57 like do we fly down like no no no there's not going to be a service and so that
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 was where the It wasn't anyone's fault.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 It was just that everybody was so out of their minds.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:08 I flew down a week later just to be with my sisters. Yeah.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:15 My sisters in Maryland, she flew in from where she was, St. Louis.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 And, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a time.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:24 It was a time. It was a time. It was unbelievable. Yeah.
00:15:26 --> 00:15:33 Now, because Steve was so much to you, was your hero, I know that losing him
00:15:33 --> 00:15:37 affected way more than just your grief.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:44 I mean, obviously it did affect your grief, but I feel like it shook your whole foundation.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:51 And a lot of that has to do with another part of this conversation that has to do with,
00:15:51 --> 00:15:57 your history of mental illness and your history with depression and suicidality
00:15:57 --> 00:16:01 and attempts and kind of the gamut of,
00:16:02 --> 00:16:07 that world of living with mental illness.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:12 Yes. And I know that it just, I mean, it shook you to your core.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:19 Like nothing else like nothing else you know and and i've had some pretty severe
00:16:19 --> 00:16:23 losses with steven i think,
00:16:24 --> 00:16:31 you know my memories of childhood being even a little little kid were all steven
00:16:32 --> 00:16:35 you know we were there's pictures of,
00:16:36 --> 00:16:42 because my mom and his mom's sisters that's it's you know first cousins and
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 because we were we're close in age and,
00:16:46 --> 00:16:51 My first memories, really, of socialization, Stephen.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:55 Stephen. And I, you know, whatever Stephen would do, I would do.
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 And copy him, usually with less finesse.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:01 That was him.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:11 And losing him, it felt like losing a brother more than a cousin because of
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13 that very, you know, the bonding.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:18 They say, you know, you remember, I remember being three years old and being
00:17:18 --> 00:17:22 at our puppet Joe and Nan Adele's and going up and down the stairs together
00:17:22 --> 00:17:27 and getting into mischief and doing all of these things. So there was a real bonding very young.
00:17:28 --> 00:17:34 And my adoration of him was just infinite. I know. Infinite.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 You know how that is. I do. You know, it was like that, I think,
00:17:37 --> 00:17:41 for all of us. I mean, Stephen was such a humble guy in so many ways,
00:17:41 --> 00:17:47 but he was also larger than life in ways that were beyond his control.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:53 It was because he was a brilliant mind. It was because he was so hysterically
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 funny and so innovative.
00:17:55 --> 00:18:01 Innovative, and just all of these little nuances of Stephen's personality just
00:18:01 --> 00:18:07 all bundled together just made him someone that had the essence of being larger
00:18:07 --> 00:18:10 than life, even though he wasn't the kind of guy who walked around like that.
00:18:10 --> 00:18:14 He was very humble in that way. He wasn't the kind of guy who was trying to
00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 be the smartest guy in the room, but he kind of almost always was.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:22 He so was, right? Yeah. And that's the other thing, humbleness. Yeah. Humbleness.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:31 Yeah. You know, after he died, I know for me, well, instant depressive episode
00:18:31 --> 00:18:34 because it's such a shock. So it's grief.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:41 And it's, you know, I think because my mental health journey or mental illness
00:18:41 --> 00:18:47 journey had struggled so much with depression, had had suicidal ideation,
00:18:47 --> 00:18:50 and attempts even before he died.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:55 It brought it to a new level afterwards.
00:18:55 --> 00:19:01 I took to my bed. I mean, I managed to somehow get on a plane and get down to,
00:19:02 --> 00:19:04 Maryland to see my sister,
00:19:05 --> 00:19:11 and both sisters and my nieces just to be together and to talk about him and
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 celebrate him because we all adored him.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:18 And after that, though, I came back and, you know, my mental health just crashed.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:23 I remember. I remember. I remember. Oh, yeah. We had lots of phone time,
00:19:23 --> 00:19:27 you and I, and lots of conversations.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:34 And thank goodness for you. And at the same time, what ended up happening was,
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 I ended up getting divorced.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:47 So my husband left me, and it had been about, God, six months after Stephen had died.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:53 And so all of the sudden, it felt like the world was just caving in.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:58 It was just so much loss. And I was married for 18 years, you know, together 20.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 So all of a sudden, that was eroded.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:06 And I just remember...
00:20:06 --> 00:20:11 And before, yeah, it was October of 21.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 I, oh, I wanted to die. I wanted to die. It had reached a point,
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 you know, where it had been just so much.
00:20:19 --> 00:20:23 And I couldn't bear it. I couldn't bear a world without Stephen.
00:20:23 --> 00:20:27 And even though I hadn't seen him in a long time, because, you know,
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 for our adult life, you know, we went different ways. Yeah, I mean,
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 he was out of the state. He was, you know, we didn't see him as often as we used to.
00:20:34 --> 00:20:40 That's it, right. He had a family. He was doing his thing. He was traveling a lot for his work.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:47 But it was so profound, that loss. And my sisters and I, two sisters,
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51 they shared that adoration for him.
00:20:52 --> 00:20:57 The depression, whoo, nosedive. And it became, I just want to die.
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 I want to follow Stephen like I always did when I was a kid.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:05 I want to follow him when he told me to roll down the stairs and I wouldn't
00:21:05 --> 00:21:08 get hurt, but did. and I broke my arm, but he was fine. Yeah, of course, of course.
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 It's on brand. It's on brand for Steve.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 So on brand for Steve. You know, he told me to do something,
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 I'd be the one that could hurt. And he would be, he's fine.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 But I wanted to go join him.
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 It's funny that you, it's not funny, but I mean, it's interesting that you say
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 that the way that you just said it, because I don't know if you remember,
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 because I know it was a really, really dark time. And it was now years ago,
00:21:33 --> 00:21:34 four and a half years, five years ago.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:41 Do you remember the text you sent me? One of the texts you sent me at that time? What did I say?
00:21:42 --> 00:21:49 You sure did. You said, I can't do this anymore. I don't want to be here anymore. Yes. And.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:56 You had made some plans. Do you remember that? Oh, I had made some plans all right.
00:21:56 --> 00:22:02 Oh, my God, did I make some plans. Yep, yep. And do you remember we had conversations
00:22:02 --> 00:22:09 about what to do about the plans that you had made and trying to cancel those things.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 And you, to your credit, I mean,
00:22:12 --> 00:22:17 you were at the lowest point that I had seen you in a very long time.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:23 And you took people's help and a bunch of us tried to, you know,
00:22:24 --> 00:22:31 help get you to a place that could be helpful and into a program that could be helpful.
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 And I give you such incredible credit because...
00:22:34 --> 00:22:41 Thank you. No, really, I do, because you were at the lowest of the low point,
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 and you were right there.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:49 I was right there. I was right there. I was right there in the abyss. And,
00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 you know, it was very special for me,
00:22:54 --> 00:23:00 to receive the help from you, Scotty, and just feeling that love,
00:23:00 --> 00:23:05 given the fact how close Stephen was to you.
00:23:06 --> 00:23:12 And and it was you know other people helped but with you i will say that,
00:23:13 --> 00:23:21 it was a very profound thing to receive help from you and from sky remember that you know,
00:23:22 --> 00:23:29 calling and just all hands on deck and that in a way i look back and go you know you.
00:23:31 --> 00:23:35 You saved me because there's something with that connection going, okay,
00:23:36 --> 00:23:46 I will not go down this road and have two suicides in our family close together.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:53 And succumb to it. And again, I say that I have no blame, judgment,
00:23:53 --> 00:23:58 anything with Stephen. If anything, I seek always just love.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:03 And I have to bring up, too, I don't know if I did earlier, is that we did have
00:24:03 --> 00:24:07 a shared a great-grandfather who took his life.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:17 And my grandmother was 15. And she walked down the road the next day.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:25 She's going to school and she saw a crowd this is in new york city and there was a sheet,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:30 it was her dad and she knew even without,
00:24:31 --> 00:24:35 and from what i heard from my grandmother when she was alive that papa jacob
00:24:35 --> 00:24:44 great papa jacob was very much like steven brilliant funny love him kind and so was this weird thing,
00:24:45 --> 00:24:47 that we do share that,
00:24:47 --> 00:24:53 and just I wanted to bring that up so you know just this remarkable human being
00:24:53 --> 00:24:56 you know yeah but back to Steve I mean and my,
00:24:57 --> 00:24:59 it took me a long time.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:06 To start to feel normalcy again and I'm not there yet because moving five times
00:25:06 --> 00:25:11 in four years with the divorce and losing Steve, and I always say. And your dad.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:17 You just lost your dad. Yeah, I just lost dad. Just lost dad in March, and that's been rough.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:23 That's been rough. And it brings up missing Stephen because they,
00:25:23 --> 00:25:29 too, when I speak of them, mentions, you know, just the best of human beings.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:35 And so, yeah. That's a great word for them, mentions. Yeah, that's what I think
00:25:35 --> 00:25:40 of, right? And they really loved each other. So it's been a lot of loss.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 And it's navigating that loss.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:49 But, Steve, and every day I say, I love you wherever you are. I love you. Yeah.
00:25:50 --> 00:25:54 When you think about the moments when you were at your lowest,
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 what helped keep you here?
00:25:58 --> 00:26:01 Hey, it's Lisa Sugarman, co-host of The Survivors and founder of The Help Hub.
00:26:02 --> 00:26:06 If you're listening right now and you're not okay, if you're feeling overwhelmed,
00:26:07 --> 00:26:11 stuck, or like you're carrying more than you can handle, please know you don't
00:26:11 --> 00:26:12 have to go through it alone.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:19 You can call or text 988 or chat online at 988lifeline.org to connect with trained
00:26:19 --> 00:26:23 counselors like me who are there to listen and support you in the moment.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:27 Reaching out is a brave first step, and you owe it to yourself.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:34 Because your life matters, your story matters, and help is always just three numbers away.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:44 Love of friends, family, and to be real honest, my pets, too.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:49 And I know you can understand, so I know how you do. I do. What do you have?
00:26:50 --> 00:26:54 When I made an attempt one time, the dogs started barking. They were crying.
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 They knew something was wrong.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:01 And in that moment, I said, I can't do this to them. I can't do this to them. No, no.
00:27:02 --> 00:27:06 They're not going to after i just rescued them a rescue place i am not about
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 to have them go back into a,
00:27:08 --> 00:27:16 into a shelter it was it saved me you know and i think what helps is feeling
00:27:16 --> 00:27:19 like i belong to something greater than myself,
00:27:19 --> 00:27:25 and that i've worked to do here even on days when i'm like oh christ I don't feel it,
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28 but that I have been given the chance.
00:27:29 --> 00:27:33 I've been given the chance after a very dangerous, dangerous,
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 dangerous attempt. I mean, I almost died. Yeah.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:41 Having the chance to go, okay, I'm still here.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:48 And also in a way to honor, it is part of honoring Stephen, because I know he
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 would not want me to do that.
00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 Just like I would never have dreamed of wanting, I didn't want him to do that,
00:27:56 --> 00:28:01 of course, but it's sort of like, you know what, being part of something larger.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:07 And sticking it out and getting help when I need it. Mm-hmm.
00:28:08 --> 00:28:11 Was there a turning point? Was that attempt a turning point?
00:28:11 --> 00:28:14 Or was it something else? It was.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:20 That attempt was a turning point because I was very close to being over and
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 out. I was almost unconscious.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:31 And so I am damn lucky because I think had I waited, I heard the dogs cry.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:36 And i was able at that moment,
00:28:37 --> 00:28:46 to stop thank god thank god and and so there was there was a turning point i
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 figured okay you've been through this,
00:28:49 --> 00:28:54 you've done this heather so far and you've been through a lot of hospitalizations
00:28:54 --> 00:29:00 a lot of attempts a lot of this one was the worst that was the worst and 2024
00:29:00 --> 00:29:04 is the worst and i knew i knew that was the biggest risk too after losing steven,
00:29:05 --> 00:29:07 that i would ramp up my,
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10 premeditation,
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12 and follow through,
00:29:13 --> 00:29:18 so yeah it really was a turning point for me saying you gotta you gotta stick
00:29:18 --> 00:29:22 it out kid yep divorce sucks losing steven absolutely devastating.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:27 You know, and fight and fight.
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 And you have, and that's what it's been like. And, you know,
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 for a lot of people, it is a fight.
00:29:33 --> 00:29:39 I mean, Nash, you've had the same kind of experiences where you've been low
00:29:39 --> 00:29:44 and you've had loss that has had an impact on your mental health And you've
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 had attempts, multiple attempts, and,
00:29:47 --> 00:29:54 have come back and had to navigate what kind of getting back in the game is like.
00:29:55 --> 00:29:57 I mean, a lot of people don't realize that.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:04 As you're in that space of mind where you're thinking about taking your life
00:30:04 --> 00:30:08 or you're ready to take your life, you know, and there's a mental checklist or even a physical one,
00:30:09 --> 00:30:15 and the items on that list are the reasons to stay, very rarely are they ever for yourself.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:21 They're for other people. That's an interesting point. So true, Tasha.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 I really, oh, absolutely. Yes.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:33 Yeah. And if I think about it for, you know, especially since becoming a mom,
00:30:34 --> 00:30:35 I can't do that to my kids.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:38 I know everybody else will survive.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:43 But I just can't do that to my kids. So if that's, you know,
00:30:43 --> 00:30:49 the only reason I have to stay is for them so that I don't destroy the rest
00:30:49 --> 00:30:50 of their lives because I know it will.
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 And I can't do that to them.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 And so, yeah, you have to find a reason.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:01 And 10 out of 10 times, it's never for yourself. Yeah.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:04 But you build on that reason, too. And sometimes it can be, okay,
00:31:04 --> 00:31:09 I, you know, I'm going to make the most of this life or whatever would go through
00:31:09 --> 00:31:10 someone's mind, which is so different.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 For every situation every person every dynamic is different,
00:31:14 --> 00:31:20 but i guess in some cases for some people it's okay i i've had that mental mind
00:31:20 --> 00:31:27 shift where i'm i'm seeing the beauty in life and i'm seeing the the potential
00:31:27 --> 00:31:29 and the possibilities and there's that side,
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 and then there's the other side like you're saying natasha it's like find a
00:31:32 --> 00:31:35 thing find find find your one thing and build on that thing.
00:31:37 --> 00:31:42 You know and it will yeah it'll it'll amplify you find one thing and then you find another thing and,
00:31:44 --> 00:31:50 and it's another thing people don't understand with with suicidal ideation is like it's almost like,
00:31:51 --> 00:31:56 a seed that's in your brain and it just takes the smallest little thing for
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 that seed to grow it's always there it is always there,
00:32:01 --> 00:32:07 that's a power it's all it i wouldn't wish it on anybody to live with,
00:32:08 --> 00:32:13 that thought that's constantly there and you're constantly having to find reasons
00:32:13 --> 00:32:18 to stay now does it shrink and is less noticeable yeah absolutely.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 It's ever-present. Yeah. Yeah. It is.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:32 Heather, question. So now you're in a different phase of your life.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:38 You're no longer living up north in New Hampshire. You're down here in the Boston area with me.
00:32:39 --> 00:32:44 You're in a completely different stage of your life now. You've,
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 you know, unfortunately, you know, you've had another loss recently. You lost your dad.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:56 You're you're also doing a lot of work on yourself you're actively,
00:32:56 --> 00:33:02 working on your state of mind and and where you are in the world and what you're
00:33:02 --> 00:33:07 doing in the world what is caring for your mental health look like now right now,
00:33:08 --> 00:33:15 it is the for one i will say this not isolating,
00:33:16 --> 00:33:20 which can be tough because I'm an introvert would probably be happy just hanging
00:33:20 --> 00:33:21 out with your two dogs and three cats,
00:33:22 --> 00:33:28 which is fine but what has changed and it's funny because technically I live
00:33:28 --> 00:33:34 in Maine but I care give my mom down here and so it's like I'm sort of back and forth but,
00:33:35 --> 00:33:42 what it looks like now is expanding that friendship group it is it's,
00:33:43 --> 00:33:48 going out to coffee with you yeah it is i love it let's do that soon.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:59 It yeah it looks like also returning to a lot of the spiritual practice that i used to and you know,
00:34:00 --> 00:34:06 it's self-care physically as well you know i let myself go mentally so much
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 and it's all we're all holistic,
00:34:10 --> 00:34:13 it's all tied together it's tied
00:34:13 --> 00:34:18 together i'm finally getting a hip replacement which you know it's like,
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 it's a big deal but it's hey i love to walk,
00:34:22 --> 00:34:29 and knowing that soon i will be able to walk again and not have a limp like
00:34:29 --> 00:34:34 i've had a lot of pain it's it's addressing that pain both physically,
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36 mentally, emotionally, spiritually,
00:34:37 --> 00:34:41 and speaking to him, going, okay, let's take care of you.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:46 Let's take care of you. Sort of, you know, sort of like a lot of inner child work, too.
00:34:47 --> 00:34:51 You know, I've been looking at a lot of, with dad having passed recently,
00:34:51 --> 00:34:56 looking at a lot of old pictures, which includes Stephen, and they're wonderful. They're wonderful.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:02 But it's sort of looking at that little girl going, hey, kid, let's get through this.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:05 Let's get through this. It's therapy.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:10 I have, like, two therapists. It's staying on top of medication. Mm-hmm.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:19 And it's doing the exercises that, you know, that the therapists recommend.
00:35:19 --> 00:35:21 I used to blow them off, go, okay, I'll do that.
00:35:22 --> 00:35:28 But now it's now. It's journaling. It's writing. And it's being part of community.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:34 And by reaching out and doing the advocacy that I used to do for mental health,
00:35:34 --> 00:35:37 I did a lot of it, you know, in different.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:41 So it's returning to that and going, I'm not going to be ashamed of the fact
00:35:41 --> 00:35:47 that I'm a suicide survivor, both literally I've lost God, I've lost,
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 sadly, too many to suicide.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:53 And Stephen, I think, jarred me the most, but they all hurt.
00:35:54 --> 00:36:01 But it's saying that, no, I am going to take care of myself and not be ashamed
00:36:01 --> 00:36:04 to also say that, yes, I have survived attempts.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:07 Thank goodness I have, instead of being ashamed.
00:36:08 --> 00:36:12 Some people used to say, oh, Heather, maybe you should talk about that. Right, yeah.
00:36:12 --> 00:36:16 Crazy, right? All of the stigma that is attached to being a suicide survivor,
00:36:17 --> 00:36:24 you know, when a suicide attempt survivor and saying, no, this is me. This is part of my story.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:30 Being here on the show is a healing step. i reached out to you going hey man
00:36:30 --> 00:36:35 i i want to tell my story and i want to honor steven and it's,
00:36:36 --> 00:36:42 it's really a constant thing and reinventing myself creatively as well i love
00:36:42 --> 00:36:46 that i love all of those things and i have to say that one of the most powerful
00:36:46 --> 00:36:47 first of all i was thrilled
00:36:48 --> 00:36:52 that you wanted to be on the pod because i knew the kind of conversation we
00:36:52 --> 00:36:56 would have which is this conversation and how powerful it was on so many different levels.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:04 But I've always known that you've been an advocate for mental health.
00:37:05 --> 00:37:11 Awareness and, you know, for medication and for therapy and treatment and all of those things.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:15 You've always been very vocal about that. But I feel like, like right now in
00:37:15 --> 00:37:20 this moment, you are the greatest advocate in this moment.
00:37:20 --> 00:37:25 Just being so vulnerable and being so willing to come on and not only talk about
00:37:25 --> 00:37:28 a loss that you and I share, which is something very interesting,
00:37:29 --> 00:37:32 a little interesting piece of this whole conversation, but also too,
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 just being so open about like, look, I did this, or I went through this,
00:37:36 --> 00:37:40 or this is what helped, and this is what didn't, and this is where I was at. And I think that...
00:37:41 --> 00:37:44 The more often that we can have these conversations just out in the mainstream,
00:37:44 --> 00:37:47 out in the open, not apologizing for it, just having it.
00:37:47 --> 00:37:51 Because inevitably someone is listening to you right now or someone's listening
00:37:51 --> 00:37:55 to our guest last week or the week before or the month before and something's
00:37:55 --> 00:37:59 clicking for them. Something's resonating. They see themselves in you and in
00:37:59 --> 00:38:01 Natasha and in me and in our stories.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:08 And it gives people that permission to talk about it, to be open about it,
00:38:08 --> 00:38:10 to acknowledge it, to own it.
00:38:10 --> 00:38:15 And that's huge so as far as i'm concerned like i i couldn't be prouder of you
00:38:15 --> 00:38:20 than i am in this moment and not just as a human but like you're family to me you're like,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:25 you're family to me well you are family to me as well and you know i love you
00:38:25 --> 00:38:29 and i'm i'm just i love you too grateful and i love you too natasha,
00:38:30 --> 00:38:31 i love you too i really mean it.
00:38:32 --> 00:38:37 Thank no thank you i mean it means the world it's how i felt when you're when
00:38:37 --> 00:38:44 your book came out And I'm like thinking, and I read it cover to cover like eight times nonstop.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:47 It was like, I so need this right now.
00:38:47 --> 00:38:51 And, you know, same with your podcast. I mean, just thank you.
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 Thank you. It's an honor to be here. And I said that before,
00:38:54 --> 00:38:56 it would be an honor to be on the show.
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59 And I reiterate that.
00:39:00 --> 00:39:04 It goes both ways. It goes both ways. We're as grateful to you and to everybody
00:39:05 --> 00:39:09 who's come to be a part of this community as you are to us. You know,
00:39:09 --> 00:39:11 we're doing the easy part. People who come on and share their stories,
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 it's not always easy. So we really appreciate that.
00:39:15 --> 00:39:23 So let me ask you this. Having lived on both sides of this, you've experienced a suicide attempt.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:28 You've experienced that deep depression, the pain, suicidality.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:31 You've lost a person you love deeply to suicide. You and Natasha are kindred
00:39:31 --> 00:39:35 spirits in this way that you both have kind of run the gamut here.
00:39:35 --> 00:39:43 What do you wish that people understood about suicide that you don't think that they do?
00:39:45 --> 00:39:50 I would say, and not everybody, maybe, but I would say...
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 It's not a selfish act. I think a lot.
00:39:55 --> 00:40:00 And again, I understand where that comes from because, you know,
00:40:00 --> 00:40:05 I understand where that comes from. But I, you know, that it's not out of a
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 selfish desire to harm or destroy everyone else's life.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:17 It is, I think, Tashi, you really mentioned that seed, the seed in there and,
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19 you know, of having it be there.
00:40:21 --> 00:40:27 That if that seed waters and grows, it becomes something, I talk about something
00:40:27 --> 00:40:31 that is like a runaway train. Mm-hmm. And that...
00:40:33 --> 00:40:37 It overtakes you. It really overtakes you.
00:40:38 --> 00:40:41 Mm-hmm. And that the things that people will say, well, there's so much to live
00:40:41 --> 00:40:45 for, blah, blah, blah, in that moment, you can't hear it because you're in so
00:40:45 --> 00:40:48 much pain, you just want that pain to be over. Yeah.
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51 And it's like, please, please help me. It's a horrible thing.
00:40:51 --> 00:40:55 So, you know, I'd say that people don't understand is just that,
00:40:55 --> 00:41:00 just that, you know, it gets big and it can get big fast.
00:41:01 --> 00:41:06 It can be one horrible disappointment. And if you're already going through so
00:41:06 --> 00:41:07 much, it can be one thing.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:12 It can be the shower curtain falling off. And all of a sudden you're like, I want to die.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:18 I mean, it's like we're laughing, but we're laughing because it's true.
00:41:18 --> 00:41:21 That's true. It's that simple sometimes. It's so true.
00:41:21 --> 00:41:25 I mean, literally, you know, in that state.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:30 And, you know, I would say to people, too, that are feeling this way out there,
00:41:31 --> 00:41:37 that please, please, please reach out and get help because you are loved,
00:41:37 --> 00:41:42 you are valued, and you may not see it. You may not be able to.
00:41:43 --> 00:41:49 And, in fact, most likely you can't in that stage at all. But that...
00:41:50 --> 00:41:56 Does with the help and support and it takes time and oh my god does it take
00:41:56 --> 00:42:03 a fight to get back but that it is possible yeah that is possible yeah you know,
00:42:04 --> 00:42:09 my genetics i might have a genetic proclivity towards suicide i've always felt
00:42:09 --> 00:42:16 it i never thought stephen did i don't know to this day there's so many we don't know none of us did,
00:42:16 --> 00:42:20 none of us and that's and that speaks that's another point that I think is,
00:42:20 --> 00:42:23 I'm glad you said that because I think it speaks to the fact that,
00:42:24 --> 00:42:27 there are people, and you know my story, so you know about my dad.
00:42:27 --> 00:42:33 No one knew. They mask, there are people who are so skilled at masking their
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 depression. And Natasha, you've done it at times.
00:42:37 --> 00:42:41 Earlier this year, this winter, perfect example, we were on the show recording,
00:42:42 --> 00:42:45 and you came out to me and said, I'm not okay.
00:42:46 --> 00:42:49 I don't want to be here anymore. And it was like happening in real time and
00:42:49 --> 00:42:54 you and i had talked on the daily or talked weekly multiple times i had no idea,
00:42:54 --> 00:42:57 and i mean there are people george yeah i know,
00:42:58 --> 00:43:04 nobody i i never or i shouldn't i should say i rarely ever let on that i'm struggling,
00:43:06 --> 00:43:11 i've gotten so good at masking in fact it's to talk about it and open up about
00:43:11 --> 00:43:15 it is more terrifying to me than carrying it alone.
00:43:17 --> 00:43:23 Because i've done it so for so long yeah because i've you know been i was raised
00:43:23 --> 00:43:29 that to not be weak and if you do share that you are struggling you're weak and,
00:43:30 --> 00:43:40 it's it's i mean people talk about brainwashing in cults it yeah here i am 30 years later,
00:43:41 --> 00:43:47 and there are still things that are in my brain and in my psyche that I will never escape from.
00:43:48 --> 00:43:52 And for anybody who's listening who doesn't know Natasha's background and story,
00:43:53 --> 00:43:58 Natasha is one of 20 children, has three mothers, one dad did.
00:43:58 --> 00:44:03 Her dad passed away, and five of her brothers have taken their lives to suicide.
00:44:04 --> 00:44:10 She was the member, a member of the polygamy cult, the FLDS,
00:44:10 --> 00:44:12 the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-day Saints.
00:44:13 --> 00:44:18 Warren Jeffs is her uncle. Her life was a shit show. Is that fair enough?
00:44:19 --> 00:44:25 To say you're you're an absolute dumpster fire yep yep and so when she talks about.
00:44:26 --> 00:44:31 Attitudes and and and you know ways of believing you need to be
00:44:31 --> 00:44:35 reasons that you need to be strong and and you need to fight through and you
00:44:35 --> 00:44:39 can't show your pain and you're going to be weak that was that was beaten in to
00:44:40 --> 00:44:44 you from the time that you understood words right oh yeah and that suicide was
00:44:44 --> 00:44:47 selfish and if you did that you were going to go to hell,
00:44:48 --> 00:44:53 and even though i'm agnostic now you know there's still that slight fear that
00:44:53 --> 00:44:58 i'll never get to see my children again or whatever is on the in the afterlife and,
00:44:59 --> 00:45:04 it's it's terrifying i wouldn't i wouldn't wish and i sorry i said that before
00:45:04 --> 00:45:06 but i just i would not wish,
00:45:07 --> 00:45:15 this mindset and it is a mindset and it takes it a daily practice that heather
00:45:15 --> 00:45:18 works has mentioned you know and and you do have to,
00:45:19 --> 00:45:20 put all those things into practice
00:45:20 --> 00:45:24 to pull yourself out of a dark hole mentally and keep yourself there,
00:45:25 --> 00:45:30 and it's it's not an easy thing and so if you're able to live your life.
00:45:31 --> 00:45:35 Normally, as normal as you can be, and you're not plagued with those ideas or
00:45:35 --> 00:45:40 those thoughts, please have compassion for people that do, because it is awful.
00:45:41 --> 00:45:45 And, you know, you mentioned how people talk about it being a selfish thing,
00:45:45 --> 00:45:47 and I hadn't heard anybody say it in a while.
00:45:47 --> 00:45:51 And I did over the weekend, this past weekend, somebody said it's incredibly
00:45:51 --> 00:45:55 selfish. And it brought up such a visceral reaction in me. I was angry.
00:45:55 --> 00:46:02 It does, me too. Because this person was so convinced that it was selfish,
00:46:02 --> 00:46:05 and she's had some people that she's close to die by suicide.
00:46:06 --> 00:46:11 And it just made me incredibly angry. And I think it's just a very narrow-minded,
00:46:12 --> 00:46:13 thought process these days.
00:46:15 --> 00:46:18 I agree with that and and you i've talked about this very openly on the pod
00:46:18 --> 00:46:21 that for years i mean my first experience with suicide i was nine years old
00:46:21 --> 00:46:24 my cousin took his life and then obviously my own father,
00:46:25 --> 00:46:29 when i was 10 but i didn't learn that until i was 45 years old and then obviously
00:46:29 --> 00:46:32 steven is the third person in my life who we've been talking about,
00:46:32 --> 00:46:36 and when my all the way up until the time my own
00:46:36 --> 00:46:41 father's suicide came out when i was in my mid-40s i secretly and in my own
00:46:41 --> 00:46:45 heart and mind for no reason than it was a belief system that I grew all by
00:46:45 --> 00:46:49 myself from my own lived experience thought that suicide was selfish.
00:46:49 --> 00:46:55 And it was only after my own father and Stephen passed away and I learned about
00:46:55 --> 00:46:59 that, just that connection with mental illness and depression and how it's all an illness.
00:46:59 --> 00:47:04 Once I had it reframed to me that it is an illness, you can put it in the same
00:47:04 --> 00:47:09 category as heart disease and cancer and, you know, anything that can be a terminal
00:47:09 --> 00:47:12 illness, mental illness is no different.
00:47:12 --> 00:47:19 It's just a more abstract thing because it affects the mind as opposed to your lungs or your heart.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:27 And once I made that connection, instantaneously realized that,
00:47:27 --> 00:47:31 of course, it's not a selfish act. It's exactly what Heather was saying a few minutes ago.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:38 It is, and what Natasha has said, it is a never-ending loop in your brain that
00:47:39 --> 00:47:46 you're not good enough or you can't handle it enough or you're not worthy enough or whatever it is,
00:47:47 --> 00:47:51 that speaks to you in your head and your heart that says you don't want to be
00:47:51 --> 00:47:54 here anymore, like that cannot be controlled.
00:47:54 --> 00:48:01 It's not something that people are just manufacturing. It is like how we can't
00:48:01 --> 00:48:06 control cancer. You can't control mental illness either. And once I realized
00:48:06 --> 00:48:08 that, everything changed for me.
00:48:08 --> 00:48:12 100% switcheroo and has never gone back.
00:48:12 --> 00:48:16 But there are a lot of people out there who believe something different,
00:48:16 --> 00:48:20 and that's part of why I try so hard to have these kinds of conversations.
00:48:20 --> 00:48:25 And every time you or I or anybody comes on and talks about that aspect of it,
00:48:25 --> 00:48:30 the selfishness aspect, I love being able to circle back and have that conversation
00:48:30 --> 00:48:31 again and again to say, look,
00:48:32 --> 00:48:36 somebody's in pain, and it's a pain they can't control, and all they want it to do is end.
00:48:36 --> 00:48:41 They don't want to leave their life or their people or their future,
00:48:41 --> 00:48:42 but they can't handle it anymore.
00:48:43 --> 00:48:48 So I'm glad you said that because I'm glad we could touch on it again. Really glad.
00:48:49 --> 00:48:53 I know that this was, I know you said it, and I'm grateful you said it,
00:48:53 --> 00:48:56 that this was cathartic for you to come on and to talk like this.
00:48:56 --> 00:48:57 But I also know it's hard.
00:48:58 --> 00:49:03 It's not easy. We miss the people we've lost, especially you and I.
00:49:03 --> 00:49:05 We miss Steve and Natasha, her brothers.
00:49:06 --> 00:49:13 You know, Steve belonged to both of us in very special and unique and beautiful ways.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:20 And I just thank you. Just all I can say is thank you for trusting us with your
00:49:20 --> 00:49:25 story and what you've gone through and the parts that were so deeply personal.
00:49:25 --> 00:49:28 That matters to us a lot. We don't take it lightly.
00:49:29 --> 00:49:33 And I just think that your story is such, not just the Stephen part,
00:49:33 --> 00:49:35 but your own experience with your own life.
00:49:35 --> 00:49:42 I just think it's such an impactful reminder that suicidal thoughts or suicidal
00:49:42 --> 00:49:46 actions don't make somebody weak or broken.
00:49:48 --> 00:49:54 It just is a signal that somebody has got an illness and that they need support
00:49:54 --> 00:49:58 and they need treatment and they need compassion.
00:49:58 --> 00:50:03 And that's what I think a lot of this conversation was designed to show.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:07 And I'm glad that it showed that. Because that was the intention.
00:50:08 --> 00:50:12 Oh, yeah. I want to thank you both as well for your compassion and love and
00:50:12 --> 00:50:17 for also putting this incredible program out into the universe.
00:50:17 --> 00:50:23 Because, again, if we can reach one person, you know, and I'm sure it's many more than that.
00:50:24 --> 00:50:29 We take that tragedy and turning it into a beautiful life's work of going,
00:50:29 --> 00:50:34 hey, how can I be of service to someone who is in pain and show that,
00:50:34 --> 00:50:38 you know, you're not alone, that you are beloved.
00:50:38 --> 00:50:43 And, you know, so thank you. It's such an amazing honor.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:47 It's an honor all the way around. You know, there are people out there who are
00:50:47 --> 00:50:49 devoted to helping people when they're not okay.
00:50:49 --> 00:50:53 You're doing it. We're trying to do it every week, every day.
00:50:53 --> 00:51:00 So if you're listening to this conversation and you or somebody you know is struggling with,
00:51:01 --> 00:51:06 thoughts of suicide or you're in some kind of emotional crisis,
00:51:06 --> 00:51:11 just call or text 988, the Suicide and Crisis Hotline, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
00:51:12 --> 00:51:15 Connect with somebody who you trust. If you have a therapist,
00:51:15 --> 00:51:18 call them, family member, friend, colleague.
00:51:19 --> 00:51:22 Reach out. Do what Heather's saying. Do what Natasha's saying. Reach out.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:26 Allow those people in so that they can understand what you're dealing with and
00:51:26 --> 00:51:29 they can help because we can't fix what we don't know is broken.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:34 And I know that I say that like on repeat, but it's true every time I say it. So I'm saying it again.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:40 And obviously, it goes without saying that if somebody's in immediate danger,
00:51:40 --> 00:51:44 call 911 or go to the nearest hospital and emergency room because there are
00:51:44 --> 00:51:47 people there who will help you too.
00:51:47 --> 00:51:52 So we're here, by the way, also the survivors community.
00:51:52 --> 00:51:56 Natasha and I are working extremely hard to create a community where people
00:51:56 --> 00:51:59 know they can come and they can be heard and they can be seen and they can be
00:51:59 --> 00:52:04 safe and they can have permission to feel whatever it is that they feel the way that they feel it.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:09 So we're here too. You know you can find us wherever you get podcasts,
00:52:09 --> 00:52:11 on every social media platform.
00:52:11 --> 00:52:15 You can DM us, hit us up. We're always here. If we don't have an answer for
00:52:15 --> 00:52:18 how to help, we'll sure work hard to try and find one for you.
00:52:18 --> 00:52:22 So keep surviving, friends. We will be right back here next week with another
00:52:22 --> 00:52:27 conversation about what it means to keep surviving after the hardest things. We'll see you then.
00:52:29 --> 00:52:32 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:52:33 --> 00:52:37 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely
00:52:37 --> 00:52:41 not broken. Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:45 The fact that you're still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:50 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:52:50 --> 00:52:52 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:52:52 --> 00:52:57 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:52:58 --> 00:53:00 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:53:00 --> 00:53:02 help is always out there.
00:53:02 --> 00:53:06 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:53:07 --> 00:53:10 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:53:10 --> 00:53:14 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:53:15 --> 00:53:18 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:53:18 --> 00:53:21 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:26 Until then, take care of yourself and your people, and keep surviving.