*WARNING: This podcast mentions suicide & grief and may be triggering.
Episode Summary
In anticipation of Thanksgiving, Lisa and Natasha dive into the complicated intersection of grief and gratitude during the holiday season—especially around the holidays, when the world feels hyper-focused on joy, family, and celebration.
They talk openly about how the pressure to “be grateful” can feel almost suffocating for people who are navigating loss. Because while gratitude is beautiful, it doesn’t erase the ache of who’s missing. And sometimes the relentless messaging about thankfulness can make people feel guilty for the sadness they can’t just switch off.
Lisa and Natasha unpack what it’s really like to show up at a holiday table with an empty chair staring back at you—or to feel the heaviness of that absence even if no one speaks about it out loud.
They explore how grief and gratitude can (and often do) coexist—even when it feels messy, contradictory, or confusing. Because the truth is: holding both joy and sorrow at the same time isn’t a failure. It’s human.
Ultimately, this episode is an honest reminder that it’s okay if your holidays don’t look like a Hallmark movie. It’s okay if gratitude feels complicated. And it’s okay if there’s a lump in your throat while everyone else is going around the table saying what they’re thankful for.
Grief doesn’t disappear just because the calendar says it’s time to celebrate. It’s not a sign of weakness—it’s a sign of love. And love doesn’t stop at the holidays.
Takeaways
- Gratitude and grief can coexist during the holidays.
- Holidays can evoke both joy and sadness.
- It's important to acknowledge the empty chairs at the table.
- Creating new rituals can help honor lost loved ones.
- Grief is a personal journey that varies for everyone.
- Small, personal rituals can be meaningful.
- It's okay to express sadness during joyful occasions.
- Feelings of guilt around gratitude are common.
- Sharing memories of lost loved ones can be healing.
- Grief is love, and it's important to embrace it.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Grief and Gratitude 02:48 Navigating Holidays with Loss 14:40 The Impact of Empty Chairs 19:39 Creating New Rituals 27:37 Embracing Grief and Gratitude Together
Mental Health Resources
- If you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for help.
- The Survivors Podcast Website – https://thesurvivors.net/
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks – https://www.thehelphub.co/
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See you next week! In the meantime, keep surviving.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:04 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 and some of what you hear may be triggering. So please listen with care.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:18 This is The Survivors. Real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:31 Hey friends, I have to just say, before I say anything else,
00:00:31 --> 00:00:40 that we're right back here in our little zone, in our little two boxes on the screen,
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 for our almost Thanksgiving episode, right?
00:00:43 --> 00:00:49 We're almost there. I have to say, I'm very excited because what you can't see
00:00:49 --> 00:00:53 is that I'm actually wearing a Canadian tuxedo.
00:00:53 --> 00:01:00 I have my denim top and my jeans, and I feel, I don't know, I just feel super
00:01:00 --> 00:01:06 Thanksgiving-y today. And you're in your green sweater, so I feel like we're vibing it.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:10 There's something about Thanksgiving and sweaters. Like, growing up,
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 did you guys dress up for your holidays, like big-time dress-up,
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14 or is that just unique? No.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:17 No, I mean, we definitely made an effort.
00:01:18 --> 00:01:22 I mean, there were definitely some pajama holidays where everybody was just
00:01:22 --> 00:01:27 in their jammies for the holidays, but we kind of had a mix.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:31 Do you guys, did you always just do like a big dress-it-all-up?
00:01:32 --> 00:01:36 Yeah. And the Thanksgiving table, that wasn't what I got to do as a child and
00:01:36 --> 00:01:38 set it. And it was always this big, beautiful.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:44 I mean, we busted out the gold flatware and the china and all the things.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:49 And it was just this huge, beautiful spread. I just absolutely loved it.
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 And I got to set the table and do all the things.
00:01:51 --> 00:01:55 And we always were dressed to the nines for the holidays.
00:01:55 --> 00:02:00 You know, it's what we did. And I've kind of carried that into,
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 but it's different when it's a huge family.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 And then there's just us, there's four of us.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:09 There's four of you. Well, now my family's even tinier. So we also have four.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 I have two girls. You have a boy and a girl.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:16 But one of my daughters is in Japan. So we are not Thanksgiving-ing together
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 anymore, unfortunately.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 We're only together a couple of times a year, unfortunately.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:27 So ours is dwindling. And you started your life as a family of 20 kids.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:33 So, you basically had a circus for every holiday when you were growing up in
00:02:33 --> 00:02:40 the FLDS with, you know, multiple families and multiple moms and a million different chairs at the table.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:46 So, okay, let's talk about the holidays and grief and gratitude and Thanksgiving
00:02:46 --> 00:02:50 with some empty chairs because that's what you and I talk about.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:56 We talk about surviving the hardest things, and it's a conflict this week, I think.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:04 That the world says this week is for gratitude. It's Thanksgiving. We have to be grateful.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 We're supposed to show up and think about all the things that we have and the
00:03:08 --> 00:03:15 relationships and really just have everything we do embody this beautiful sense
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 of gratitude to be together around a table.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:21 But there is a real harsh reality to that.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 That is not the case for a lot of people. I know it's not the case for me.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:32 I have lost people who I continue to miss every single year who are not around my table anymore.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:41 You have lost five of your brothers to suicide in the recent years.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:48 You know, history of your life. And when you're grieving and you've lost someone,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:53 whether it be to suicide or any other kind of loss, your table does not feel
00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 the same anymore. It just doesn't.
00:03:56 --> 00:04:01 There is an empty chair or maybe more. In your cases, half the table is empty.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 And that creates an energy shift.
00:04:04 --> 00:04:15 That creates this overlay of emotion and grief that permeates this day that
00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 is supposed to be about gratitude and thankfulness.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:22 So this is our grief and gratitude episode because, yeah, okay,
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 gratitude matters. For sure, it matters.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:30 It's powerful. It's necessary. But it doesn't erase grief.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:34 They have to exist side by side. And I think that that's okay.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 And I think that that's necessary. And I think that's the whole point of having
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 a conversation like this.
00:04:41 --> 00:04:45 So let's start by just like, let's do the thing that you and I have now gotten
00:04:45 --> 00:04:49 in the habit of doing. Let's name the tension of this week.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 Let's name the weirdness of this week.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:55 Because culture says, be thankful, be joyful.
00:04:56 --> 00:05:01 Post the perfect table setting. Make sure your IG story looks great.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:07 Meanwhile, grief is like tucked in the corner, like what about the person who's not here?
00:05:08 --> 00:05:14 So I'm curious, and this is I'm asking you directly. When you hear me say holiday
00:05:14 --> 00:05:18 season, Thanksgiving season, what does your body feel like?
00:05:18 --> 00:05:23 As someone who has lost five siblings to suicide and your father and your grandfather,
00:05:23 --> 00:05:27 what does that feel like inside you?
00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 What kind of pressure does that create?
00:05:30 --> 00:05:35 The holidays have kind of become really sad for me, to be perfectly honest,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:40 because it's just a stark reminder of what used to be and no longer is.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:45 And the emptiness, because growing up with so many siblings,
00:05:45 --> 00:05:49 our holidays were chaotic and beautiful and fun.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:54 And now it's just a reminder as each passing loss we've endured,
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 there's just one last person at the table.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:01 And and as we've gotten older we kind of everybody's kind
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 of shifted to doing their own little thing with their own low family
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 which is normal most people have had children and things
00:06:06 --> 00:06:09 like that but it just it doesn't feel the same it
00:06:09 --> 00:06:16 yeah it's just it's really sad and and heartbreaking almost yeah yeah i get
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 that and that and that's it right there that's the truth of it that holidays
00:06:21 --> 00:06:26 can be beautiful and they can be brutal at the same exact time.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:32 I want to talk about the pressure part. Can we talk about the pressure part?
00:06:33 --> 00:06:37 Like there's this, I don't know how much you feel it. I know I feel it at times.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:44 A lot of survivors, like you and I have both survived multiple suicide losses.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:49 A lot of survivors feel a lot of guilt during the holidays. Like,
00:06:49 --> 00:06:52 should I even be grateful? How can I possibly be grateful?
00:06:52 --> 00:06:57 Other people have it worse. I should maybe not be this sad.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 Like there are so many different ways that you can feel guilt.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:07 But I mean, let's say it honestly. Gratitude that's forced is not gratitude.
00:07:07 --> 00:07:08 It's like performative.
00:07:09 --> 00:07:13 It's just, it's not real. Have you ever felt like gratitude was like being demanded
00:07:13 --> 00:07:18 of you before you were ready to be grateful, would you say?
00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 Well, I don't know. It's more that,
00:07:23 --> 00:07:29 You've lost this person that's been this long, you should be over it more than anything.
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 Not necessarily like a forced.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:38 And again, with each loss, we've gotten more real about just if somebody's feeling really down.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:41 Because one person could be fine one day and then the next they're not.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:48 And it's learning to show up for each other on those hard days and learning
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 to be there and support each other, especially if it's a holiday.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:54 Like, I'm sure it's really hard for our moms. Oh, I'm sure.
00:07:56 --> 00:08:00 And so just being extra kind to them and things like that. So,
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 yeah. What about for you?
00:08:02 --> 00:08:04 Yeah. I feel like it's worked. Yeah.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:10 You know, I mean, sometimes I feel like I need to minimize the pain that I feel.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:14 I mean, I'm a really, really highly emotional person.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:17 I mean, you and I haven't even talked about this part yet.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:21 I mean, you and I are still like we've recorded so much together and we've gotten
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 to know each other so well in a short period of time.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 But there's still parts of our personalities that we don't even know yet about
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 each other. And this is fun for me to be able to say to you,
00:08:30 --> 00:08:34 hey, by the way, I'm a really highly emotional person who feels everything and
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 cries over every silly little thing.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:45 There are definitely times when I feel like I shouldn't maybe let it out the way I'm feeling it.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:50 I don't want to contaminate. Maybe that's the wrong word, but I don't want to
00:08:50 --> 00:08:56 influence the vibe of an occasion by feeling sad. So maybe I try to suppress
00:08:56 --> 00:08:59 that a little bit or minimize that a little bit.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:06 But I have the benefit of having been dealing with the losses that I've been
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 dealing with for so many decades with my family, with my kids,
00:09:11 --> 00:09:16 with my husband, that it's kind of integrated into everything.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:25 Like everyone knows to expect that there is that mixture of sadness and gratitude and joy.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:30 So I guess I'm kind of lucky in the way that I don't really feel a lot of pressure
00:09:30 --> 00:09:35 if I tear up because I wish my dad was at Thanksgiving and I realize I only
00:09:35 --> 00:09:37 got 10 Thanksgivings ever with my dad.
00:09:37 --> 00:09:42 Probably, you know, five or six of them I actually remember.
00:09:42 --> 00:09:44 Yeah, I get sad and I let myself. Yeah.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:50 I guess I'm lucky in that way that I don't really feel like I have to hide anything.
00:09:50 --> 00:09:51 I know a lot of people, though, who do.
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 And I'm sure a lot of people who are listening feel, especially like if they're
00:09:56 --> 00:10:01 the ones hosting, how could they possibly have it be anything less than a perfect,
00:10:02 --> 00:10:07 ideal day full of all the goodness of the holiday?
00:10:07 --> 00:10:11 But it's hard. I mean, you can be grateful for what you have and still be heartbroken
00:10:11 --> 00:10:15 at the same time. I think both things can be true at the same time.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 I mean, I feel that way.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:23 Well, I mean, and it's interesting that, so that pressure to have it look a
00:10:23 --> 00:10:26 certain way, I feel that when I lived in Utah.
00:10:27 --> 00:10:29 So I grew up in Utah. I lived there for the first 30 years.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:33 Then my husband and I moved across the country to Virginia. We lived there for six years.
00:10:34 --> 00:10:37 COVID happened, circumstances changed. We moved back to Utah for two years.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:43 And I definitely feel like the pressure that I feel for the holidays was more
00:10:43 --> 00:10:47 there when I'm around my family, because there is that expectation.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:51 And it, again, stems from how we were raised, that everything needs to look
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 and be perfect. And that's also a Utah culture thing.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:59 Well, you were also a member of the FLDS polygamy cult.
00:10:59 --> 00:11:03 You had, you know, three mothers in the household and 20 children.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 Your uncle is Warren Jeffs.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 You grew up, I mean, it's, what is it, Sweet, Pray, and Obey?
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 That's the Netflix documentary? That's your life.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:18 Keep Sweet, yeah. Right. Keep Sweet, Pray, and Obey. And that was your life.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:27 Well, I mean, I have to say that, yes, he was a big part of it, but my parents kept us,
00:11:27 --> 00:11:33 they still kept us away from and let us think for ourselves because my mom,
00:11:33 --> 00:11:38 she hated Warren and didn't want to have, and my dad certainly didn't respect him.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:43 And so we were still allowed to be and do, but we were still going to school.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:49 So it was just this weird mixture of, yes, he had influence over our lives,
00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 but he didn't have as much influence as say other people in the church did,
00:11:53 --> 00:11:54 because they gave it to him.
00:11:55 --> 00:11:59 They let him have that much power. My parents were strong enough to stand on
00:11:59 --> 00:12:03 their own and be like, no, we're not going to allow you to influence us this much.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:10 And certainly as time went on, and we were, we left in, excuse me, 97, so...
00:12:11 --> 00:12:16 We still had some life left, you know, to live without him. And I mean,
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 he just continued to get worse.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 And he actually took away the holidays. That's the other crazy thing,
00:12:22 --> 00:12:26 is we were allowed to celebrate Thanksgiving and Fourth of July.
00:12:26 --> 00:12:27 We didn't get to celebrate Christmas.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:32 But as time went on and he gained more and more power, he took away the holidays
00:12:32 --> 00:12:33 and you weren't allowed to celebrate them.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:38 And I do remember my last year in Alta Academy, the school that he was the principal
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 of, he had taken away Thanksgiving.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:47 And I left to go home and to celebrate Thanksgiving. And I remember my classmates
00:12:47 --> 00:12:52 were shunning me and just absolutely, we know you're going home to celebrate
00:12:52 --> 00:12:55 Thanksgiving and you know that's against the rules and things like that.
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 In my mind, I was just kind of like flipping on the board.
00:12:58 --> 00:13:02 Right, right. Well, talk about a conflict. I mean, talk about exactly what we're
00:13:02 --> 00:13:03 talking about, like wanting to be joyful,
00:13:03 --> 00:13:09 but then being so stifled or being so inhibited from being able to experience
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 the holiday the way you would maybe have wanted to.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:19 Yeah. So we, I mean, we still did and we, we continued to celebrate.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 And when we were finally excommunicated and we left and we got to put Christmas
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 lights on our house for the first time and outside, outside of our house.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 Can you imagine how exciting that was? I can't imagine. I can just see in your
00:13:31 --> 00:13:32 face how exciting it was.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:37 And it was just like, because we grew up on a compound, and Warren lived on
00:13:37 --> 00:13:41 that compound, and my grandfather lived on that compound, and they would drive
00:13:41 --> 00:13:42 past our house to get to their house.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:47 And so when we got to put those Christmas lights, it was just this big, giant F you.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:56 What a way to tell Warren Jeffs to screw off, put up some Christmas lights.
00:13:56 --> 00:13:57 Can you imagine with Christmas lights?
00:13:57 --> 00:14:04 I think it's brilliant. I love it. Absolutely love it. So, all right. So let's talk about...
00:14:05 --> 00:14:09 Let's talk about the empty chair part of the holiday.
00:14:09 --> 00:14:12 And obviously we're talking about Thanksgiving because we're on the verge of Thanksgiving.
00:14:12 --> 00:14:17 But Christmas is coming after and it's the season. So there are going to be
00:14:17 --> 00:14:23 a lot of empty chairs around a lot of tables for the next couple of months.
00:14:24 --> 00:14:31 So survivors feel that. I know I feel that. I mean, my dad's been gone 47 years.
00:14:32 --> 00:14:36 And it's not like we actually have a physical empty chair there for my father,
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 but like, I'm just aware of that. I know that he's supposed to be at the table.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:45 When you sit at a table when someone is missing, what does that moment in your
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 life, like I'm thinking of you now, five brothers who are now gone.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:54 What does that feel like in your brain and in your body? Do you kind of brace
00:14:54 --> 00:14:56 for it? Do you go silent? Do you disconnect?
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 Like what is happening when you're looking at a table?
00:14:59 --> 00:15:02 I know you said that you're with your husband and your two children and it's
00:15:02 --> 00:15:09 not like the big, huge family event anymore, but it's gotta still be with you. What does it feel like?
00:15:10 --> 00:15:15 It definitely is there. And again, when we were back in Utah for two years,
00:15:15 --> 00:15:16 I definitely felt it more.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 And actually, Corey, he was the third brother to commit suicide.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:23 He did it in the middle of November. So right before Thanksgiving.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:30 And we just tried our best to get through it. And I hosted Thanksgiving.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:35 Not my entire family came, but a vast majority of them did.
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 And I set a spot
00:15:38 --> 00:15:41 for Corey and I had the name tags
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 and all that stuff and we I had
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 his journal because I wrote his obituary so I
00:15:47 --> 00:15:50 happened to have his journal and so I placed it there and so
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 we were all very aware that particular Thanksgiving
00:15:53 --> 00:16:00 and it did feel empty and I remember my son Dominic he he'd saw the spot and
00:16:00 --> 00:16:05 he cried and he it just it really hit him hard and And so that Thanksgiving
00:16:05 --> 00:16:11 in particular was incredibly difficult and getting through that whole holiday season.
00:16:11 --> 00:16:17 Subsequent holidays after that, and, you know, we've lost two brothers in the early 2000s.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 I don't know. I feel like we just kind of...
00:16:21 --> 00:16:26 Each person recognizes it in their own way, but it's not like this big public display.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:30 Again, it's just you deal with it. When your life is traumatic and there's just
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 all these things that are constantly coming at you and shaping who you are,
00:16:34 --> 00:16:39 if you let it bog you down in too many ways, you're just going to stop living.
00:16:39 --> 00:16:45 And that's one thing that my family has quite perfected is just keep on living.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 Well, we have a couple of choices, right?
00:16:49 --> 00:16:54 We either we do or we don't. And it's unfortunately, you know,
00:16:54 --> 00:16:58 I'm not trying to oversimplify, but that's it. Those are your choices.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:03 You either continue going forward and it doesn't matter how quickly,
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 doesn't matter how big your steps are or how many of the steps you take.
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 It just means forward motion is forward motion and you do that at your own pace.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 It's hard. It's really, really hard to...
00:17:16 --> 00:17:23 Be so acutely aware of who is not there with you when you're celebrating those
00:17:23 --> 00:17:25 special times. And I'm not just talking about Thanksgiving.
00:17:25 --> 00:17:29 I mean, whether it be a holiday or it be a graduation or it be a wedding or
00:17:29 --> 00:17:34 like, you don't think I was so joyful on my wedding day,
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38 but also so deeply sad that my father was not the one walking me down the aisle
00:17:38 --> 00:17:43 or when my daughters were born or the fact that my husband and my kids have never met my dad.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:51 So these, the way that we take all this in during those times is,
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54 like you said, it's very, very personal.
00:17:54 --> 00:17:59 And I've, for myself, learned to just let it flow through me.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 There's no other way. Like, to try and block it out, I can't do that.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:06 I, and that's, I'm only speaking for myself. If I'm having a shit day,
00:18:06 --> 00:18:11 and I'm somewhere, and I'm thinking about my father, and I'm missing him,
00:18:11 --> 00:18:16 and wishing he was there and really feeling it in my heart, I let myself feel it.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:21 Like, what other choice is there to just pretend it's not affecting me? I can't do that.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:27 And I feel like I'm honoring him and I'm honoring myself and what I need at the same time.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:31 So, you know, you said that your family's kind of perfected their strategy.
00:18:31 --> 00:18:34 Like, that's mine. I sit in the shit when I have to.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:40 And then I get up and I move forward. And we all do it in different ways.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:51 So, okay, creating new rituals where you can kind of hold joy and you can hold grief at the same time.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:57 Like, how do we do that? Let's shift the rest of the conversation into a conversation
00:18:57 --> 00:18:58 where we talk about possibility.
00:18:59 --> 00:19:03 And I'm not talking about toxic positivity because I think where a lot of these
00:19:03 --> 00:19:08 holidays are concerned, it's like, oh, you know, put on the face and everything
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 has to be performative and you've got to be positive, positive.
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 No, I don't, I'm not talking about that.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:22 I'm talking about creating maybe new rituals that allow space for the reality
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 of us being okay and not okay at the same time.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:29 So for you, what have you done?
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 What are some of the things that maybe you or your kids or you and your husband
00:19:33 --> 00:19:37 or just you have done that make the holidays feel more meaningful or grounded,
00:19:37 --> 00:19:39 even in the middle of grieving?
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 You know, my favorite way is because my children have never met,
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 obviously, Klein and David because they died many years ago.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:53 And so I love to share, particularly with David, because he was just a jokester.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:59 And so I love to share funny memories of a particular sibling with them,
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 and they'll ask questions and they love to hear about it.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:09 And so that's how I have learned to be grateful is to realize that I have these
00:20:09 --> 00:20:16 wonderful memories with that person and to share those memories with my children or with George.
00:20:16 --> 00:20:26 And so as far as rituals go, I just try to take a moment and just think about
00:20:26 --> 00:20:30 them and just know that I love them still.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:36 And I, with most of them, I do have like a something that I took of theirs,
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 you know, as we're clearing out their things.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:43 And so it's just little things like that, just reminding myself that it's okay
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45 to miss them and to have something.
00:20:45 --> 00:20:50 It sounds so dumb, but to have a blanket or a towel that I have of Brandon's
00:20:50 --> 00:20:55 that I, every time I wash that towel and I fold it, I think about it.
00:20:55 --> 00:20:59 It's not dumb. It's not, that is so not dumb. I, you know what?
00:20:59 --> 00:21:03 It made me think when you said that you had like something physical of his.
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 So I'm not wearing it right now, but I try to, especially on the holidays.
00:21:07 --> 00:21:12 And I actually, I do at different points, like on the anniversary of my father's
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 death, I'll try to put it on.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:21 My dad had one of those old ID bracelets, the very thick identification bracelet with his name on it.
00:21:21 --> 00:21:28 And I got that sized for myself when he passed away. And I wore that for years
00:21:28 --> 00:21:29 and years and years and years.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:37 And I just do a quiet little personal ritual of putting that on on Thanksgiving.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41 So that's kind of always dangling there. I feel it. It's heavy.
00:21:41 --> 00:21:45 So it's always kind of in my brain that it's on me and he's with me.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:50 And, you know, rituals don't have to be big productions. They can be very small,
00:21:50 --> 00:21:54 personal, quiet little acknowledgments. And so I do that.
00:21:54 --> 00:22:01 And then I have a couple of my dad's old sweatshirts, which now my dad was a pretty tiny man.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:05 He I think I would probably tower over my father right now. I mean,
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 he was barely over five feet and I'm five four.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:14 So he was a pretty tiny little man and I will sometimes like try and squeeze into one of his,
00:22:15 --> 00:22:19 sweatshirts just you know even sometimes when I'm home alone and Dave is traveling
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 and I'm just kind of feeling a little sad doesn't have to be a holiday I just
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25 you know I'll just I'll pull it out and I'll put it on just to feel close to
00:22:25 --> 00:22:30 him because it's just it's just a reminder it's just like hey we haven't forgotten
00:22:30 --> 00:22:35 you you're here so those are the things that I do and of course like.
00:22:35 --> 00:22:42 I have shared the stories of my father, the things that I remember with my kids,
00:22:42 --> 00:22:46 to the point where they're like, oh, my God, are you really going to tell us that again?
00:22:47 --> 00:22:51 Like, I do that all the time so that I feel like he's present.
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 You know, I feel like he's part of the conversation.
00:22:55 --> 00:23:01 He's there with us somehow. So there are a lot of different things that I try to do.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:05 And I think that it's so interesting for me to hear what other people do because
00:23:05 --> 00:23:08 there have definitely been times when I've heard what people do and it sparks
00:23:08 --> 00:23:12 an idea of something that I can do.
00:23:12 --> 00:23:17 And I think music is a wonderful way. I actually have a playlist that I listen
00:23:17 --> 00:23:22 to and we have specific songs like The Rose by Bette Midler.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:27 Like that's our family grief song. You put that song on, you want to see somebody
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 ugly cry, like an entire family ugly cry. Yeah, yeah.
00:23:31 --> 00:23:36 And so I am allowing myself in those quiet moments, like in the car to drive
00:23:36 --> 00:23:40 and to listen to the music. If I am feeling like I'm sad or I guess that's another
00:23:40 --> 00:23:45 ritual that I have is allowing myself to hear the music and allowing it to move through me.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:49 And each person that I've lost, I have a particular song for.
00:23:49 --> 00:23:53 And I know several of my siblings do the same thing.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:58 And so that's a beautiful and powerful way to remember them.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:04 And I think the hard thing that people have with grief is they're so afraid of it.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:11 Because it is such a heavy thing to deal with. But if people can just allow
00:24:11 --> 00:24:16 themselves to be with it, even in short little bits, if that's all they can manage.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:24 But just allowing yourself to be with it and be in it allows your body to move
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 through it faster. I mean, everybody's on their own journey.
00:24:27 --> 00:24:34 And again, my family has more experience with grief than probably 99.9% of the population.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:40 And so that's the biggest thing for us is just allowing us to be with it in
00:24:40 --> 00:24:46 the moment and not be afraid of it and not run from it. I think that's a big thing too.
00:24:46 --> 00:24:50 I love that you said that. And it's so powerful and important and true.
00:24:50 --> 00:24:54 And it just makes me think of how I've worked really hard very intentionally
00:24:54 --> 00:25:02 the last probably handful of years, more since the truth about my dad's suicide has come out.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:06 Because I had to regrieve his death for the second time in my life all over
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 again. I lost him when I was 10 years old to what I thought was a heart attack.
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11 And 35 years later, I learned it was a suicide.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:17 So I had to regrieve him all over again. And that grief in so many ways is still so fresh.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:23 And so what I've learned to do now more recently is really have a complete mind
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 shift about what grief actually is.
00:25:26 --> 00:25:30 When I think about it in terms of what I now believe that it actually is,
00:25:30 --> 00:25:33 it totally reframes everything for me. Grief is love.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:37 Grief is love. I read a book several years ago. She's one of my favorite authors.
00:25:37 --> 00:25:38 Her name is Marissa Renee Lee.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 I talk about her a lot. I've talked to her about her, I believe,
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 on this podcast before. She wrote a book called Grief is Love.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:53 And it is just that. It is a reframing of why it is that grief hurts us so much.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:57 And when you stop and think about the fact that the reason why it's so deeply
00:25:57 --> 00:26:03 painful and hard is because of this deep, deep love that we have for this person.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:10 Like, I would not actually want to stop grieving for my dad or my cousin or
00:26:10 --> 00:26:13 my friend who I've lost to suicide or my grandparents or anyone who I've ever lost.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:20 I would never want to lose that feeling as hard as that feeling is because of
00:26:20 --> 00:26:25 what it symbolizes, because it's just another expression of love.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:28 So what you just said just made me think of
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 that and in terms of something that's really kind of helped me
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 and just a simple reframing of what something is
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 and why we feel it to me has been very powerful
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 in how I move through moments like Thanksgiving
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 when I'm basting the turkey and crying while I'm
00:26:43 --> 00:26:46 basting sometimes because I'm thinking about my dad and I wish he was there
00:26:46 --> 00:26:54 so yeah it's um it's a journey right it's a journey for sure so if if you're
00:26:54 --> 00:26:59 if you're carrying grief this thanksgiving which i know a lot of people who
00:26:59 --> 00:27:03 are listening to us right now are a lot of people are here are a.
00:27:07 --> 00:27:10 Can sit together at the same table. They don't cancel each other out.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:14 They are each unique to each other.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 And one has nothing to do with the other, if you really break it down.
00:27:20 --> 00:27:27 You don't owe anyone a performance of faking happiness over the holidays.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30 If you're sitting at the Thanksgiving table and you're not okay, don't be okay.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 If you don't feel like crying at the table, get up and cry in the bathroom.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:37 Get up and move to a safe place.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:42 Maybe grab a cousin or an aunt or your parent if you can and tell them you're not okay.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:47 Tell them you want a hug. You don't have to perform. Your feelings are valid.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 And the last thing is these small rituals that we talked about,
00:27:51 --> 00:27:56 even the private ones that we don't share with anybody, can really help make
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 a lot of space for that love and that loss to coexist.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:02 So whatever works for you, do the thing.
00:28:03 --> 00:28:08 So as we head into Thanksgiving, to every survivor, whatever you're surviving,
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 take what you need and try and leave what hurts.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 And if the table feels really, really heavy, it doesn't mean you're broken.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 It just means you're human. You're a human being and you're trying to survive.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:28 So next week, we're moving straight into domestic abuse and survival.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:33 We're going to align with the last bunch of days of the 16 days of activism
00:28:33 --> 00:28:35 against gender-based violence.
00:28:35 --> 00:28:39 And Natasha, you're going to be leading it. You're going to be leading some
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 of the powerful truths that we're going to talk about in that episode.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 So in the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:51 Just hope you get what you need from the holiday, whatever it is that you need.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 And we'll see you all again next week.
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 We'll be right back here, same time, same place. In the meantime,
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 keep surviving. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:07 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 survivors community no matter where you are in
00:29:10 --> 00:29:13 your story you're not alone and you're definitely not broken
00:29:13 --> 00:29:18 healing takes time and it looks different for everyone the fact that you're
00:29:18 --> 00:29:23 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work if something
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 in today's conversation resonated with you please share it with someone who
00:29:26 --> 00:29:31 might need to hear it too that's how we keep these conversations going and remind
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 each other that there's always hope.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:36 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:29:36 --> 00:29:37 help is always out there.
00:29:37 --> 00:29:42 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:46 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:29:46 --> 00:29:50 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:29:50 --> 00:29:54 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:29:54 --> 00:29:57 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:29:57 --> 00:30:02 Until then, take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.