00:00:01 --> 00:00:05 Hey friends, before we dive into this week's episode, just a heads up.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:09 Our podcast talks about suicide, sexual abuse, and other trauma,
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00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 This is The Survivors, real stories, raw conversations, and the truth about
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 what it means to keep going after the hardest things.
00:00:22 --> 00:00:25 We're so glad you're here. Let's keep surviving together. Let's keep surviving together.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:32 You know, it's funny. We were talking, you and I, a while ago about the end
00:00:32 --> 00:00:36 of the year and like anticipating the end of the year and how strange the end
00:00:36 --> 00:00:39 of the year can feel when you're grieving.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 And I know yours or like where anyone who's grieving is always going to be grieving,
00:00:43 --> 00:00:48 but you are still in active grief for your brother who you lost in the spring.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:54 And it's such a weird place. I don't know about you, but it's such a weird feeling.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:57 It's like everybody's out there celebrating. And this is just an extension of
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 the weirdness that everybody feels during any holiday.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:04 But there's something about the new year, I feel like, when it's supposed to
00:01:04 --> 00:01:13 be this rebirth and restart and countdown and resolutions and all this new energy.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:19 And you're grieving somebody who's gone. And there's this pressure to be so
00:01:19 --> 00:01:25 excited about, like, let's start another year, but we're not taking our person into the new year.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:29 I feel like it's almost pulling me backwards sometimes.
00:01:29 --> 00:01:34 And I'm not ready to leave that year yet because I don't want to leave my person
00:01:34 --> 00:01:35 further behind. Does that make sense?
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, New Year's doesn't erase anything. No.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:43 If anything, grief gets louder during the holidays when everybody's celebrating
00:01:43 --> 00:01:48 because it's just a reminder that that person's not there. Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 Do you ever feel, I know how I feel,
00:01:51 --> 00:01:56 but do you ever feel out of sync with everybody else during holidays?
00:01:56 --> 00:01:59 Like, I know we're talking specifically now about New Year's,
00:01:59 --> 00:02:03 but do you feel that way? Yes, I do.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 We've talked about this before, you know, like on our Thanksgiving episode,
00:02:07 --> 00:02:11 but because of how big and grand our holidays were as a child,
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 and I chose, again, to have two children,
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 it's so small, and it just feels so foreign because it is so small.
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 Yeah. I love it, but I don't know.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 I'm constantly being pulled between two worlds.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:32 Yeah, yeah, I know that feeling. And I mean, I don't have the experience that you have.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:37 I mean, you came from a massive, massive family with 20 children,
00:02:37 --> 00:02:43 a dad, and three moms because you were part of the FLDS polygamy cult.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:50 So you had like a football team and a half that you celebrated everything with, which is crazy.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 But I didn't have that.
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 I was an only child and, you know, lost my dad when I was 10.
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57 So it was my mom and it was me.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:01 And it only grew to three when my grandmother came and lived with us.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 So our holidays were always really small.
00:03:03 --> 00:03:10 And I don't really honestly ever remember doing a lot for New Year's when I was little.
00:03:10 --> 00:03:14 I actually have, I'm just thinking about this right this second for the first time.
00:03:14 --> 00:03:22 I really don't feel like I have any memory of my parents or doing anything on
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 New Year's Eve. Now, granted, I was a little kid, so how many little kids were
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 really staying up until midnight on New Year's Eve?
00:03:28 --> 00:03:31 But I just, like, don't even remember it. And that makes me sad. Yeah.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:39 Yeah. Oh, my gosh. We oftentimes celebrated with another polygamist family, big parties.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 And we did the pots and pans and went outside and we banged on them.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:47 And even if we weren't at a party, all of us kids would go outside and bang
00:03:47 --> 00:03:53 pots and pans. I mean, it was just, it was, again, just chaotic and loud and fun.
00:03:54 --> 00:03:58 And yeah. And so with, again, with my kids, we're just like,
00:03:59 --> 00:04:04 this is weird. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I didn't have that.
00:04:04 --> 00:04:05 I didn't have that at all.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:11 But I guess, you know, you are where you come from. And we've always had very
00:04:11 --> 00:04:12 different traditions with our kids.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:20 I mean, we have two children also. We have two girls. And we've always done it up for New Year's.
00:04:20 --> 00:04:23 And we've always been, we're a big ski family back when our kids were young.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:26 So we would always be up in the mountains. We had like our chosen family of
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 ski friends who we're still close with today and we would
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32 do new year's eve with them and it would be bonfires it
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 would be skiing and it would be all the shakers and
00:04:34 --> 00:04:39 crackers and bangers and all those things i i do i do i do love a good mellow
00:04:39 --> 00:04:45 new year's eve though i really do and this year we are spending our third new
00:04:45 --> 00:04:52 year's eve in tokyo with our daughter which is a blast to see it there.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:57 You talk about like a party and bringing it in with a big, big bang.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:03 That's about as big a bang as you can get. You know, I also feel sometimes guilty
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 that I'm not as excited. Like each year is different.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:12 Just every holiday I think is different. Some days I'm totally dialed in and
00:05:12 --> 00:05:16 I'm super excited and I'm full steam ahead with all the happy joy.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:21 And then sometimes I feel guilty. I really feel, I don't know.
00:05:21 --> 00:05:29 Sometimes I feel guilty for being joyful and being here to celebrate these things
00:05:29 --> 00:05:33 with people who are gone. That's what I mean.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 And that doesn't stop. I mean, I know in the beginning when you're grieving
00:05:39 --> 00:05:42 the loss of someone, everything is heavy. Everything is hard.
00:05:42 --> 00:05:45 Every milestone is traumatic.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:50 And there's so much guilt of feeling joy again.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:54 How could I disrespect my person's memory feeling joy? I sometimes still feel
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 that way. My dad's been gone for 47 years.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:03 And sometimes when I'm without him for something special, like in New Year's
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 Eve that I really didn't have a lot of memories of him, I don't know,
00:06:07 --> 00:06:12 I get sad and I definitely feel kind of a little guilty if I'm having a good time and super happy.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:15 I don't know, it's a little bit irrational maybe in some ways,
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 but I understand how it feels in my own head.
00:06:18 --> 00:06:23 And this is always a place where I can just express the things that I feel in my own head.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 Yeah. You know what I mean? I agree. Yeah.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:34 I feel like, so David and Klain are the first two brothers to take their lives in the early 2000s.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:41 And we somehow found a normal sense of life after that.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:45 And, you know, found a way to celebrate and things like that as more time went on.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 But since the third brother, Corey, took his life in 2023, and we just had one
00:06:52 --> 00:06:56 loss after another, you know, I've lost three brothers in the past three years.
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 I've lost three brothers to suicide and my dad to cancer.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 And it's just, it's compound grief. And it's just, it's just too much.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:06 And I don't think I'll ever be the same. I don't think anybody in my family
00:07:06 --> 00:07:07 is ever going to be the same.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:14 And so finding a way to carry forward in life, I'm trying to look at it this way.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:21 Every year, if I walk forward into a new year, I'm living another year that
00:07:21 --> 00:07:26 they didn't get to, especially because Clayne, David, and Corey were all 28
00:07:26 --> 00:07:27 when they took their lives.
00:07:28 --> 00:07:30 And if I can...
00:07:31 --> 00:07:36 Live another year beyond that for them, I'm getting to live a life that they
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 didn't get to live. And so now I feel like I'm honoring them.
00:07:39 --> 00:07:45 And so I, you know, every time somebody dies, the band-aid gets ripped off or starting over.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:50 And so if I can get on the other side of that heavy, heavy grief,
00:07:50 --> 00:07:54 and then I can kind of see the positive side of things and just find a way to
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 honor them and remember them.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:03 And so one of my favorite ways to honor my brothers and my dad is to share funny
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 memories of them with my children.
00:08:06 --> 00:08:10 And they've even gotten to the point where they start asking about each of them.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 You know, they obviously, Clayton and David, were dead long before they were born.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:20 So they ask questions and funny things, and I love that.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:25 So I think just trying to remember the good things, Because it sounds cliche,
00:08:25 --> 00:08:29 but I feel like that's the best way to remember our lost ones.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:35 Yeah, no, I agree with that. Did you guys have any really significant traditions?
00:08:36 --> 00:08:38 Did you do anything? I mean, you said you went outside and did the pots and
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 pans and kind of whooped it up as a family.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:47 But did you do anything else that was like a special? Was that a special time for your family?
00:08:47 --> 00:08:52 Because also, too, you were in the FLDS cult. I know you didn't celebrate Christmas
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 for a long time because you were in the FLDS.
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 What was New Year's like for you? New Year's was fine to celebrate.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:00 I think we did...
00:09:01 --> 00:09:07 Yeah, New Year's was not off because it wasn't any specific like pagan holiday,
00:09:07 --> 00:09:11 you know, like Christmas was considered pagan and Halloween was considered pagan.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:16 But New Year's was, I feel like a lot of the polygamist families celebrated it and had a big party.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:20 And, you know, generally you could have a ginormous party with just your own children.
00:09:21 --> 00:09:24 I was going to say, like when you said a little while ago. To include families coming together.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:28 Right, right. Well, you said a minute ago that, you know, you would do things
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 with like another family. Well, that's like 80 people.
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 Now you have 80 people. You have two families. You have 80 people.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:40 That's insanity. It really is. It is absolutely insane. And our house actually
00:09:40 --> 00:09:44 growing up was not, it would seem big to people now. It had seven bedrooms.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 Oh, my God. But it was very small.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:53 Yeah, yeah. It's not big and spacious like what people think because kids were
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 just getting stacked in there together.
00:09:55 --> 00:10:00 My dad did three additions on our house because as the family grew he needed
00:10:00 --> 00:10:04 more space so he had to keep adding on and again it's very common in polygamous
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 families but some families their
00:10:07 --> 00:10:12 homes were ginormous so they could easily accommodate so i don't we didn't host
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 a lot where it was multiple families coming together unless it was during the
00:10:14 --> 00:10:18 summertime and it was outside but yeah the i don't want to say their name because
00:10:18 --> 00:10:23 they're actually a very public facing family, but wonderful memories with them.
00:10:23 --> 00:10:27 Okay, that's good. They threw some great, great parties and were very welcoming
00:10:27 --> 00:10:30 and a lot of fun memories with their family growing up.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 So I have a question, and I don't know if it's going to be a hard question.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:39 I don't want it to be a hurtful question or hard question for you to answer,
00:10:39 --> 00:10:44 but given the fact that you're still dealing with such a new death,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:49 losing Monroe, losing your brother, your fifth brother. Yeah.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:57 Is stepping into the new year knowing that the year that he passed away, is that really hard?
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 Like, is that something you're not thinking about at all? In which case,
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 I don't want to put it on your mind at all.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 But if it is something, like, is that a thought?
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 Like, does it feel like you're moving farther away from him?
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 When you think about it in the context of grief and the new year?
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 No. Okay. No, not really. What about for you?
00:11:17 --> 00:11:21 I don't know. Now, I guess as the years and the decades, especially with my dad, add up,
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 they actually, like, I think a lot of people might have the false impression
00:11:26 --> 00:11:33 that when you get that far along in your grief, like, I'm 47 years out from when my father died.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:39 And I think a lot of people might assume that, oh, it's like the grief is reconciled
00:11:39 --> 00:11:45 or balanced or, you know, not resolved, but it's managed. Yeah.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:50 It's definitely different, but I don't grieve any less. I just grieve in a different way.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 And I've been paying an awful lot of attention this year to how I've been feeling
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 about accumulating more years and accumulating more decades.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 Like, I don't know what it is. It's about the number 47 years.
00:12:02 --> 00:12:07 It just seems infinite to me all of a sudden.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:11 And so as I'm heading toward New Year's Eve,
00:12:11 --> 00:12:15 when everybody's paying attention to old year closes, new year starts,
00:12:15 --> 00:12:21 and all that energy, I'm thinking like, damn, now it's another year I'm adding
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 on to how many years it's been since I saw my dad.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 And it feels hard.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:32 So I don't know, somehow it feels harder than it has in recent years.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:35 And I'm kind of dialed into it on the new year for some reason,
00:12:35 --> 00:12:37 which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:43 You know, it just, it surprises me sometimes how things like celebrating New
00:12:43 --> 00:12:48 Year's or celebrating the holidays can really just kind of stir up grief in
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 such unexpected ways. Like, you expect it.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:52 Obviously, you expect to be
00:12:52 --> 00:12:56 sad when you can't spend special occasions and holidays with your people.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:00 Yeah. But I don't know, something about New Year's and the change of the calendar
00:13:00 --> 00:13:07 year this year has just been on my brain a little extra this year for some reason.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:13 Well, and another way I feel like what we also can talk about is because a lot
00:13:13 --> 00:13:16 of people are unfamiliar with grief and they don't know how to have conversations
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18 or how to support people.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:22 So one of the things that really needs a lot is somebody who has,
00:13:22 --> 00:13:26 I feel, become an expert in grief. I know you are, too.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 How do you become an expert? Spend 10 hours learning about a subject.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:35 I spent the last 20-something years grieving, and you 47 years.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:40 We have to do that math. I have to, at some point, do that math to see how many
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 hours 47 years actually is.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:48 Yeah, you should. I should. You should absolutely. Because I have blown so far
00:13:48 --> 00:13:54 beyond the 10-hour rule that I should now have a doctorate in grief,
00:13:54 --> 00:13:58 a couple of PhDs, I don't know, honorary degree from Harvard, whatever.
00:13:59 --> 00:14:03 Can we get an honorary degree over here? Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot of hours.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:08 But I feel like one of the things that's important to how to show up for somebody
00:14:08 --> 00:14:15 that's grieving is don't say, what can I do for you or what do you need?
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 It doesn't matter where they're on their journey. I feel like,
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 and I've started to do this with you.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 How can I support you better in this time? And a lot of times,
00:14:24 --> 00:14:26 sometimes even asking that question.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:32 But it's just something about offering up the support not a what do you need feels kind of,
00:14:33 --> 00:14:39 disconnected and so yeah just make sure you're paying attention to the people
00:14:39 --> 00:14:44 around you that are in their active grieving journey they are struggling even
00:14:44 --> 00:14:48 though they're hiding and they do a lot of work it's it's a lot of work to try
00:14:48 --> 00:14:53 and show up emotionally and pretend like you're having a good time when you're actively grieving.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:58 So, even though they appear that they're okay, oftentimes they're not.
00:14:58 --> 00:15:03 So, if you see them maybe quiet in a corner, just go sit with them.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 Don't have to even say anything. Just go sit with them.
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00:15:58 --> 00:16:03 And you never know what will cause a trigger. It could be New Year's Eve.
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 It could be any one of the holidays. It could be a random Wednesday.
00:16:05 --> 00:16:10 It doesn't make a difference what it is, but you're absolutely right that we
00:16:10 --> 00:16:16 have to be paying attention to the people around us and doing the work of picking
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 out the things that we think that they would need.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 I mean, you and I were talking a little bit offline before we hit record about
00:16:22 --> 00:16:30 what it was like for you when you lost sibling after sibling and people weren't
00:16:30 --> 00:16:32 showing up that you thought would show up.
00:16:33 --> 00:16:38 And ultimately, the only thing you could think of to tell people to do to help
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 you was to cook a meal because you couldn't cook.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 It's things like that. I feel like these open-ended questions like,
00:16:45 --> 00:16:47 tell me how I can help you.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 I think that puts too much pressure back on the person who's grieving.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 And instead, like, you finally got to a point where you were like,
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 okay, do this thing for me.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:00 Either we have to say that, and honestly, that shouldn't even be our job if
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 we're the one grieving. It should be the people around us who are trying to support us.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:08 If you know that person well enough to be connected to them if they're grieving,
00:17:09 --> 00:17:10 then you know what that person may or may not need.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 So, offered up, the worst thing that person can say is, I don't need that.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:18 Right. That's not helpful. A simple text.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:25 We live in a day where 30 seconds, 15 seconds, a simple text of I am thinking
00:17:25 --> 00:17:28 of you and I love you. Mm-hmm.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:33 That's all you need to do. Yeah, yeah. That does the world for people that are
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 grieving or just having a hard time.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:43 And just, you know, just a little, if we could just, I know the holidays gets crazy and chaotic.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:47 And that just makes it even worse for the people that are grieving and just
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 trying to get through it.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:54 But just finding a way to let them know that they're not alone really makes
00:17:54 --> 00:17:55 a big difference for them. Yeah.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:01 And also, especially, we're obviously, we're through Christmas holidays now,
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 and we're here around New Year's.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:12 If you're recognizing that someone's lost someone, don't force them to go out for New Year's Eve.
00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 If they don't want to go out for New Year's Eve, don't force them to watch the
00:18:15 --> 00:18:19 ball drop or go to the party or go to the club. Like, don't.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:23 That's another thing that you can do for your person. That's another way of
00:18:23 --> 00:18:24 showing up. It's just saying,
00:18:25 --> 00:18:31 I totally respect that your head space and your heart space is not in a place to do this right now.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 And give somebody the out. Don't even make them have to say it.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:41 Because a lot of people, when they're actively grieving, if they feel joy or
00:18:41 --> 00:18:46 excitement or celebrate, they feel like they're betraying the lost loved one
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 by feeling any kind of happiness.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:55 It's a big betrayal because how dare I be happy or feel joy when they're gone?
00:18:56 --> 00:19:01 Again, it's just this teetering back and forth between wanting to feel better,
00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 but feeling like you're betraying the lost.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:07 Yeah, it's a very, very awkward place to be in.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:14 So someone's listening right now. And if you're listening and you've had a loss
00:19:14 --> 00:19:17 recently, this year, last year.
00:19:17 --> 00:19:22 And we're moving into a new year. And there's a lot of symbolism there.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:27 You know, we already talked about it, the restart, fresh beginning, all those things.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:34 You don't have to celebrate moving further away from someone you love if that's how you feel.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 That's what we just talked about, that sometimes moving into a new year makes
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 you mourn the year that, you know, if you've just lost someone,
00:19:42 --> 00:19:48 now you're out of that year that you were with them. It feels somehow farther away.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:54 You don't have to celebrate moving forward if you're not ready to move forward.
00:19:55 --> 00:19:56 Surviving another year is, I
00:19:56 --> 00:20:01 think it's sacred work. I think it's pretty sacred work to do that. And...
00:20:02 --> 00:20:08 It's our job to carry that person into the new year and all the years that follow,
00:20:08 --> 00:20:13 because that's how we honor them. That's how we stay tethered to them.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:19 So, I don't know. It's just a mixed bag. I think the bottom line is that we
00:20:19 --> 00:20:24 don't have to feel overjoyed and exuberant to hit the new year hard.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 Just show up for it. It doesn't matter. You can tiptoe into it.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 You can jump into it. You can do whatever you want. But, you know,
00:20:31 --> 00:20:32 you don't owe the world big energy.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37 You just, you just got to show up. And yeah, grief is going to be beside you.
00:20:37 --> 00:20:44 And it will always be beside you. And all you can do is just let it be there.
00:20:44 --> 00:20:45 We don't really have a choice.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:50 I think that's, that's the thing that most of us don't really recognize.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:54 Can you remember back last year and years past?
00:20:54 --> 00:20:58 Because I know you've lost a lot of family members, like quick succession.
00:20:59 --> 00:21:03 When you get to a point like New Year's Eve and you're letting go of a year,
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 what's something that has helped you that you can think of kind of keep going
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 when everything feels happy? You don't want to celebrate.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 You don't want that new year to start.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15 What has helped you, would you say? Yeah.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:22 Okay. So for me, a way that helps me grieve and honor them, I usually find a
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 song that is somehow attached to them.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:28 We actually have a family grief song, which sounds terrible.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:31 I know. I actually think you've talked about that in one of our episodes about your family.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:36 Yeah. So it's Bette Midler's The Rose. We played that at, I think,
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 just about every funeral that we've had.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:43 But I feel like a way to carry them, number one, say their name out loud.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:51 Yes. say their name out loud and allow yourself to cry when it comes up because
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 you just never know when it's going to hit.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:58 And if you have somebody you could trust or that you feel like you can be vulnerable
00:21:58 --> 00:22:02 with, just say, hey, you know what? I'd really like to talk about my person.
00:22:03 --> 00:22:07 Do you have some time to talk about them with me? I just really want to honor them and remember them.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 Share some funny memories or whatever comes up for you.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:16 I'm really, I'm really, really glad that you brought that up because I think
00:22:16 --> 00:22:17 so often people get a little paralyzed.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:22 People who have like all the best intentions get really, really paralyzed.
00:22:22 --> 00:22:28 And maybe on New Year's Eve, that's what you want to do. Maybe you're super
00:22:28 --> 00:22:32 missing your person at that time and all you want to do is talk about them,
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 but the people around you don't know that. So everyone's terrified.
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 Nobody wants to bring it up if it's going to make you sad. Nobody wants to talk
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 about it if it's not what you want to talk about, ask.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:48 The person who's lost someone can only just say, hey, look, I really appreciate you asking. I'm good.
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 I don't want to talk about it. Or it could be,
00:22:51 --> 00:22:56 most wonderful gift that you give them to ask to talk about it.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 Because they can share, be like, oh my gosh, you know what, so-and-so,
00:23:00 --> 00:23:06 they always did the funniest thing on this holiday or around New Year's Eve, and we all loved it.
00:23:07 --> 00:23:12 And sharing memories of your lost loved one is a wonderful way to honor them.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:17 And again, I feel like part of what you and I can do, because we've had so much
00:23:17 --> 00:23:22 experience with grief is teaching others how to show up for others that are grieving.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 So I'm really glad we're continuing to talk about this and educate others on
00:23:26 --> 00:23:31 ways that they can show up for somebody who's gone through a hard time and grieving.
00:23:31 --> 00:23:35 Yeah, well, I mean, that's exactly what you and I are doing with any of these conversations.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:43 And so much of what you and I talk about here is how to navigate loss and grief
00:23:43 --> 00:23:47 and trauma and all of these things that all have such similar kinds of emotions
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 and that people tiptoe around.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 And I think the hardest thing is remembering that you're not the only one dealing
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 with the thing that you're dealing with.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:01 That's why you and I keep showing up every week to talk about all these different
00:24:01 --> 00:24:07 things, because I'm not a victim of sexual abuse or domestic violence. You are.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 I've lost the same person twice. You haven't. Together,
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 we've lost eight people to suicide and the more
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 that we talk about all these things the more
00:24:16 --> 00:24:21 people will identify themselves in your story or in my story and be like oh
00:24:21 --> 00:24:26 okay well Natasha tried that or said that and Lisa did this and that worked
00:24:26 --> 00:24:32 for her and she gave herself permission to to say no I can't show up for this
00:24:32 --> 00:24:36 thing or do that thing and I guess I can too and so it's just the whole big chain reaction.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:42 It's a whole long-winded way of saying it's beautiful when you realize that
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 you have community out there who can understand what you've gone through. And they have.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:51 Things to offer. We all can't think of all the answers. We all don't have all the answers.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:55 We all don't have all the experience. So when we can all come together and share
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58 all that in a place where people can kind of pick and choose what they want
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 and what they need, that's the whole point.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:09 I agree. I agree. Hope is so important because, especially around the holidays,
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 and I always try to take forward with me a positivity.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:15 I guess that's how I'm different in the new years.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:21 It gives me a sense of hope. Like, what can I do differently this year? What didn't work?
00:25:21 --> 00:25:24 Especially gain a lot of wisdom in your 40s, I'm telling you.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:32 Wait till you get to your 50s. I'm like a prophet now, not the FLDS kind.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:41 I'm just saying I'm not. Oh my God, that's too good. I'm here all week.
00:25:42 --> 00:25:47 There you go. So it can't be the Lisa and Natasha show without a little bit of laughter.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:55 It's got to be like, what the hell would we do if we couldn't somehow laugh at some of this stuff?
00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 I mean, there are a lot of people who are going to be listening to this who
00:25:58 --> 00:26:01 are getting ready for New Year's. They've lost someone they love.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:06 They're shitting their pants because they don't want to let the old year go
00:26:06 --> 00:26:07 or they're afraid to step into the new one.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:10 And they don't know how to feel and they don't know if they should celebrate and they...
00:26:11 --> 00:26:16 Don't know how to handle it. And if you and I can show up and ultimately end
00:26:16 --> 00:26:22 up laughing about something and prove to someone like, A, it is okay to laugh,
00:26:23 --> 00:26:24 and B, it's okay to laugh.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:30 You eventually will again. If you and I, when you accumulate all of the shit
00:26:30 --> 00:26:35 that we've been traumatized by in our lives, if you accumulate all of that,
00:26:35 --> 00:26:40 that is a big ass bucket of trauma between us.
00:26:40 --> 00:26:46 And if you and I can still laugh and can get to a point in our lives where,
00:26:46 --> 00:26:50 yeah, we still have grief actively every single day, but we can also have joy too, then,
00:26:51 --> 00:26:56 And maybe somebody going into the new year who's terrified, not knowing what to expect,
00:26:56 --> 00:27:00 feeling like they have to show up in a certain way, you guys can just not worry
00:27:00 --> 00:27:06 about that and focus on what you need in the moment and show up in whatever way you feel you can.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:10 Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like their absence has taught me how to show up
00:27:10 --> 00:27:16 for myself in ways that other people have not. Yes. Yeah.
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 You've got to show up for yourself. like 100% if
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 that means giving yourself grace being kind to yourself and
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 not expecting yourself to do or feel a certain way at a
00:27:25 --> 00:27:28 certain time and just allowing yourself you know what this
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 is what I'm feeling in the moment and be kind to
00:27:31 --> 00:27:37 yourself beating yourself up about feeling or not feeling any kind of way you're
00:27:37 --> 00:27:41 just doing more damage to yourself so just need to show up for yourself and
00:27:41 --> 00:27:46 be kind to yourself and love yourself yes yes and yes if you had like a last
00:27:46 --> 00:27:50 message as we move into the new year,
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 what would you wish, and I can answer it too, but I'm asking you first,
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 what do you wish people understood,
00:27:57 --> 00:28:03 about grieving during that new year time where there's so many expectations?
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 What would you say? Like first thing that comes to your mind.
00:28:06 --> 00:28:14 I would honestly encourage people to choose intentions that are rooted in compassion, not pressure.
00:28:15 --> 00:28:20 Yeah, I love that. I've completely given up on resolutions, not because I don't
00:28:20 --> 00:28:25 believe in them, but because it's tied to that pressure. Like, honestly...
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29 I just want to show up, period.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 I just want to show up in whatever way. I want to give the
00:28:32 --> 00:28:36 gift to myself to show up however I need
00:28:36 --> 00:28:45 to and give myself that grace to fall apart when I need to and celebrate the
00:28:45 --> 00:28:53 wins when I get them and kind of be free-spirited in a way when I move into a new year.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:57 I've noticed that that's how I feel. I used to love the whole resolution thing
00:28:57 --> 00:28:58 because, of course, it's motivating.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:04 It's great to kickstart yourself. But it does come with an awful lot of pressure.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:08 And what is it? It's like 75% of all New Year's resolutions fail in the first
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10 12 days of the year or something stupid like that.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:14 But it's like that. And I don't want to
00:29:14 --> 00:29:18 do that anymore. I just want to be open-hearted. That's what I would say.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:24 I hope people know that you can be open-hearted in whatever way you can.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 And it's good enough. It's good enough.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:34 So next week, we're, okay, I'm actually really, really excited to have this
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35 conversation next week.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:38 First of all, I'm glad that we had this conversation this week,
00:29:38 --> 00:29:42 because I know it was helpful for me even just to say out loud that.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:48 This time of the year gets me feeling a little bit funky as I accumulate all
00:29:48 --> 00:29:50 those years of being without my dad.
00:29:50 --> 00:29:53 So I appreciate you just sitting there on the other end of the screen,
00:29:53 --> 00:29:55 just taking that in. So thank you. I love you for that.
00:29:56 --> 00:30:02 So next week, we're going to talk about how to survive parenthood while we're grieving.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:09 And oh my God, do we have a lot of experience with that because that is a whole
00:30:09 --> 00:30:17 nother beast. Like how we show up for our children when we can barely hold our own shit together.
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 How do you love them when you're so distraught you don't even know your own name?
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 You know, how do you keep showing up when you feel just so fragile that you
00:30:26 --> 00:30:31 feel like you're just going to crack when one of them hugs you?
00:30:31 --> 00:30:36 So I actually am really excited about that conversation because I think it's
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 going to be a very unique one. And we both have so much perspective to offer
00:30:39 --> 00:30:44 on that. But both on the parenting side and on the grieving while parenting.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 Yeah, I do have one final message, and I actually wrote it down because I didn't
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 want to miss it. But I want to read it to you.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55 So it's genuine, but I just want to read it so I make sure I say it right.
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 So just a final message of what we've shared here today.
00:30:59 --> 00:31:02 If you're stepping into the new year with grief in your hands,
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 you're not broken. You're human.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 You're allowed to carry both love that hurts and hope that saves you.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:13 I'm walking into this new year with my brothers in my heart and my dad.
00:31:13 --> 00:31:17 And with the belief that healing doesn't mean forgetting. It means you're living
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19 the way that they never had a chance to.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 I love that. Why are you going to make me cry at the very end before I hit stop?
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26 That was beautiful. And I really appreciate that. And I think a lot of other
00:31:26 --> 00:31:28 people who hear it will too.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:32 So thanks for sharing that. We'll be back. We're going to be back exactly one
00:31:32 --> 00:31:33 week from right this second.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 So between now and then, keep surviving, friends. We'll see you soon.
00:31:37 --> 00:31:40 Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Yeah, Happy New Year.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:45 Thanks so much for listening and for being part of the Survivors community.
00:31:46 --> 00:31:50 No matter where you are in your story, you're not alone and you're definitely not broken.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:55 Healing takes time and it looks different for everyone. The fact that you're
00:31:55 --> 00:31:58 still here and still trying means you're already doing the hard work.
00:31:59 --> 00:32:03 If something in today's conversation resonated with you, please share it with
00:32:03 --> 00:32:04 someone who might need to hear it too.
00:32:05 --> 00:32:10 That's how we keep these conversations going and remind each other that there's always hope.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 And if you or someone you know is struggling, please remember,
00:32:13 --> 00:32:14 help is always out there.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:19 You can call or text 988 anytime to reach a trained crisis counselor like me.
00:32:19 --> 00:32:23 And for more mental health resources, tools, treatment options,
00:32:23 --> 00:32:27 and content to support your mental health, visit thehelphub.co.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:31 We're so grateful you're part of the Survivors family, and we'll be back next
00:32:31 --> 00:32:34 week with another honest conversation about life after the hardest things.
00:32:35 --> 00:32:39 Until then, take care of yourself and your people and keep surviving.