This bonus episode marks a major milestone—our very first time recording together in person! We open up about trauma, healing, advocacy, and how one unexpected connection turned into a powerful, life-changing friendship.
🎥 Watch the Video Podcast on YouTube:
A video version of this episode is available here:
YouTube: @TheSurvivorsPodcastChannel
🎙️ Episode Sponsored by TheHelpHUB.co
This episode is proudly brought to you by https://www.thehelphub.co
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Welcome to TheHelpHUB—your online destination for mental health resources, content, and tools to help you navigate whatever mental health challenges you face.
At TheHelpHUB, we offer individualized resources tailored to your unique needs and community, with over 16 different categories to find exactly the kind of personalized help you need when you need it most.
So, whether you're looking for crisis support, downloadable resources, or an archive of mental health-related articles and videos—we’ve got you.
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🔍 Episode Summary
Lisa and Gretchen are finally in the same room—and recording this bonus episode from Salem, Massachusetts.
Together, they explore the real-life impact of trauma bonding, vulnerability, and the unexpected joy that comes from community and shared survival stories.
- Shared trauma can become a bridge to deep, meaningful connection.
- You don’t need a crowd—just one person who truly understands.
- Even in pain, there’s space for joy, laughter, and purpose.
- Advocacy, vulnerability, and storytelling help others heal—and ourselves too.
- 00:00 – Episode intro & trigger warning
- 00:21 – Meeting in person for the first time
- 01:35 – The gift of friendship after trauma
- 04:36 – How The Survivors Podcast began
- 06:58 – The importance of shared understanding
- 08:10 – Supportive partners and healing through connection
- 10:00 – Why community changes everything
- 13:25 – Vulnerability, grief, and survivor guilt
- 17:51 – Shared pain sparking purpose
- 20:00 – Building something beautiful from something horrible
- 21:31 – Closing reflections & mental health resources
- The Survivors Podcast Website
- The HelpHUB™ – Mental health resources, tools, and support networks
- Schoser Talent and Wellness Solutions – Mental wellness coaching & support
- Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads – A raw, award-winning mental health podcast
Our incredible sister podcast, Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads, has been nominated for two People’s Choice Podcast Awards—the Adam Curry Award and the Health Award! 🏆
Let’s help them bring it home! Here's how:
- 👉 Go to: https://www.podcastawards.com
- 👉 Register with a valid email address (they do verify emails)
- 👉 Vote for Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads in both categories
- 🗓️ Deadline to vote is July 31st, 2025
Thank you for supporting their powerful mission to normalize mental health conversations through raw, real, and relatable storytelling! 💬💙
#TheSurvivorsPodcast #EndTheStigma #MentalHealthMatters #SuicidePrevention #YouAreNotAlone #BreakTheSilence #GriefSupport #988Lifeline #SurvivorStories #HealingTogether #PodMatch #MentalHealth #SuicideAwareness #Podcast #Community #Hope #Grief #Stigma #MentalIllness #Support #LisaSugarman #GretchenSchoser
🎙️ See You Next Week!Stay strong, keep going, and remember: You are enough. 💜
00:00:01
The Survivors is brought to you by our friends at the Help Hub. This
00:00:05
podcast mentions suicide, mental illness, grief and loss and may be
00:00:08
triggering for some listeners. So please take care of your mental well being
00:00:12
by pausing or skipping any sections that feel uncomfortable to you. And if
00:00:16
you or someone you know is struggling, please call 988 for support.
00:00:21
Hey, girl. Hey. Like, we're actually in the same.
00:00:26
We're in the same room for the first time ever.
00:00:30
Hey. We had a sleepover. We did. We had a sleepover. We ate
00:00:34
good food. We've had beautiful weather.
00:00:38
We are here together just north of Boston in
00:00:42
Salem, Massachusetts. This is so weird. I, like, see you here
00:00:45
where I usually see you, but then you're like, right here.
00:00:50
Right here. So we're doing a bonus episode because we're together in the same place,
00:00:53
so why the hell wouldn't we do that? Right? Yeah. Like, who? When will this
00:00:56
ever happen again? I don't know. I. I hope someday. Someday.
00:01:00
But right now, it's happening now, so let's just. We're doing it.
00:01:04
So we wanted to make good use of our time,
00:01:07
so we thought we would talk a little bit about
00:01:12
something that we both can speak to, which is what we always do,
00:01:15
and talk about friendship after trauma and what it's like
00:01:19
to truly be seen and feel like you're
00:01:23
understood and feel like you are part of a community.
00:01:27
And a community could just be you and another person or it could be you
00:01:30
and a group of people. But in our case, we are our
00:01:33
own little survivor community. We are. So we thought we'd
00:01:37
talk about the unexpected gift of friendship through
00:01:41
shared pain, which is a weird way to bond, but it's one
00:01:45
of the strongest. To me. I feel like it's one of the strongest ways
00:01:48
that I've ever bonded with anybody is through this pain. Like trauma
00:01:52
bonding. It's. There's nothing like it. Yeah,
00:01:56
yeah, I know. And God, you're like in my peripheral vision. This is weird.
00:02:00
So how we found each other. For
00:02:03
anyone who has not listened to us before, we
00:02:07
are two different kinds of survivors. I'm a three time survivor of suicide loss
00:02:11
ng. I'm a suicide attempt survivor. Yep. And we found each
00:02:15
other because G has another podcast also in
00:02:19
the mental health space, called Shit that Goes on in Our Heads that's blowing up
00:02:22
in the universe right now with millions and millions of downloads. And I was a
00:02:26
guest on her podcast and we just.
00:02:29
Just clicked like within a minute. Within a minute.
00:02:33
Yeah. Of our first little pre call, that. Pre call that was
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supposed to be 25 minutes. Ended up being two hours. Oh, it's more than two
00:02:41
hours. Yeah, easily more than two hours. And so we both
00:02:45
found each other through our advocacy work. And I. What I. What I hope
00:02:48
we talk about a little bit today is
00:02:52
the unexpected benefit, silver lining,
00:02:56
joy, whatever you want to call it, that comes from doing something like advocacy
00:03:00
work, like getting embedded in a new community, even if the reason why you're there
00:03:04
is a sucky reason. Yes. So
00:03:07
we had these shared experiences and we found out we had
00:03:11
just this connection and we had gone through
00:03:15
so many of the same things in terms of suicide, and
00:03:19
it was this ability to have these conversations without
00:03:23
even having like the whole parts of the conversation. Right. We finished each other's
00:03:26
sentences. I should have just done that right then. That would have been perfect.
00:03:30
Please don't. No, I'm sorry, I won't. I'm just gonna keep touching you sometimes.
00:03:34
Touch me. Okay, so we. If you also have not listened
00:03:38
until today, we are now into
00:03:42
season. Obviously you're listening to season two of our podcast.
00:03:46
We began this in March. We first met each other, had our
00:03:49
first call in October of. Right.
00:03:53
24. Of 2024. And then I think I
00:03:56
recorded with shit that goes on in our heads. In November
00:04:00
or December. Yes, in November. Right. And then it was released in January.
00:04:04
In January. Right. So. And then after that, you and I had, during that period,
00:04:08
actually we had been kind of cultivating idea like we want to do something
00:04:11
and we want it to be around advocacy and around
00:04:15
trauma survival and all those things. And what do we do? And oh, let's do
00:04:18
another podcast. Because she doesn't already have enough to do with one big podcast.
00:04:22
So here we are and we, we have
00:04:26
been recording now for two full seasons and
00:04:30
our podcast is blowing, I think us both away because
00:04:34
of the kind of feedback that we're getting in. The world and 100%.
00:04:37
And this is the first time we've met each other in person. Yes, yes, yes.
00:04:41
Y all been over the Internet. Yeah. So we, we met a
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couple of nights ago and you and your wife drove in from
00:04:48
New York and again we're here in Boston and we
00:04:52
saw each other walking toward each other and it was like such a weird sensation
00:04:56
to have this one dimensional picture walking with real
00:05:00
body parts and legs and things. And so we've just been
00:05:04
just deep conversations and
00:05:07
planning and laughing and I. Think I've
00:05:11
gained £200. We'll walk a lot today. Yeah, we'll walk this afternoon.
00:05:15
So how does trauma change the way
00:05:19
we Trust and bond. How do you think,
00:05:22
as a question, what is it like letting someone in?
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You and I. Trauma vomited on each other
00:05:29
immediately. And I know how it made me feel.
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How did it make you feel? Was like a warm hug.
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Because when I came out with my own story, I lost a
00:05:41
lot of friends. Yeah. They didn't want to hear about it. They want to
00:05:45
keep their head in the sand and just live their merry life. But,
00:05:48
like, when I met you and I met other people in the community that really
00:05:52
want to talk about it, it changes the perspective, it changes the
00:05:56
narrative around how we talk about these topics. And it's really
00:05:59
important that we talk about it. And there's a freedom there. Yeah. Like,
00:06:03
there was this unspokenness. It's like, granted, we have. Again, we have
00:06:07
two different perspectives. Like, you've lost people to suicide. I have.
00:06:11
And obviously I've lost many people to suicide. You
00:06:14
have the advocate and the survivor of a loss
00:06:18
piece. So you have that survivor of an attempt perspective,
00:06:21
and I have the loss perspective. But there's so
00:06:25
much in that that is shared, and there was so much that you and I
00:06:29
didn't even really have to say because we understood where we
00:06:33
came from. And the point of all of this that we're trying to say is
00:06:36
that there is so much power to be found in the thing that we
00:06:40
always talk about, which is sharing your stories, but finding
00:06:44
community who understands the story that you're sharing.
00:06:48
Because that's like an instant bond.
00:06:51
And that's what it was for the two of us.
00:06:55
And I just. It was so freeing to me. It
00:06:59
was so empowering to me to be with somebody who
00:07:03
just understood if I was having a grief attack or understood if I was off
00:07:07
or vice versa. And the thing is, like, we feed
00:07:11
off of each other. We can just take
00:07:14
any topic out and just start talking about it. We
00:07:18
make it really easy to talk about the really hard stuff,
00:07:22
but the more we talk about the really hard stuff, that brings our bond even
00:07:26
closer. And not everybody wants to
00:07:29
talk about it. And I get it. And that's okay. And I'm not placing blame
00:07:33
on anybody. There's a time and a place to. Who talk about
00:07:36
suicide and mental health and. But, like, having
00:07:40
friends that can help you get through those really hard
00:07:44
days. It's everything. Yeah. It can be a game
00:07:48
changer. It can be the difference, completely. The difference between
00:07:53
just surviving. Right. And thriving. I'm just
00:07:56
gonna say, like, for us, we're really fortunate because both of our partners,
00:08:00
our spouses, are super supportive and Having
00:08:04
that support system around us
00:08:07
helps us thrive for sure. So
00:08:13
how has this friendship for you
00:08:17
helped you heal or be more
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creative or move forward in different ways,
00:08:25
would you say? I'm going to say our friendship has made me
00:08:28
realize again that, you know, I'm not alone on my own journey. You know,
00:08:33
certain parts of my story kind of emulate
00:08:36
certain parts of your story, and that together
00:08:40
we're out there helping to change the world, change that narrative.
00:08:45
And it makes me feel good that I'm actually able to give back to the
00:08:48
world. And I've given back my entire life, but, like, now
00:08:52
I get to give back in a different mode. And people
00:08:56
all over the world are actually hearing our voices and hearing that friendship.
00:09:00
And having a tight friendship like that is super important. But
00:09:04
even, like, casual conversations, like when I. Whenever I'm out
00:09:07
and about, I always carry business cards for my podcast. You were
00:09:11
so funny. We went to breakfast in my
00:09:15
hometown, which is just north of Boston, and
00:09:19
G's meeting someone and had to pat on for her other podcast,
00:09:22
shit that goes on in our Heads. And someone made a comment about it and
00:09:25
she's like, oh, this is the name of my podcast. And so, oh, that sounds
00:09:28
interesting. And she whips out this business card and
00:09:32
gives it to this dude on the street. But you know what?
00:09:36
That's how you make connections, right? That's how you build community. That's how you build
00:09:39
community. And the mental health community is growing
00:09:43
leaps and bounds, especially this year, because everything
00:09:46
is on fire and people just need an outlet.
00:09:50
And for some people, maybe our podcast is that only outlet they have.
00:09:54
Yeah. But it also helps us build community, builds community in
00:09:58
LinkedIn, builds community. And Instagram. I mean, the whole
00:10:02
point of all of this is that sometimes
00:10:05
you only need that one person. Sometimes you only need that
00:10:09
one connection, that one bit of validation,
00:10:12
that one opportunity to sit with someone face to face or
00:10:16
even on the phone or through a screen or whatever it is, and be like,
00:10:19
hey, I went through this really hard, awful thing,
00:10:23
and nobody in my life really understands it the way you
00:10:27
do. So now it next levels up the connection
00:10:31
that you have. That's why last night was it. Last night at dinner, you said
00:10:35
something. You just looked at me and you're like, I feel like we've known each
00:10:37
other for 25 years. It feels like that. Yeah. Because we. We
00:10:41
just feed off each other. Struggling with your
00:10:44
mental health, Feeling lost, overwhelmed, or just
00:10:48
alone? Well, you're not. Welcome to the Help Hub,
00:10:52
your online destination for mental health resources, content and
00:10:55
Tools to help you navigate whatever mental health challenges you are facing in
00:10:59
the moment. At the Help Hub, we offer individualized
00:11:03
resources tailored to your unique needs and community, with
00:11:06
over 16 different categories to find exactly the kind of
00:11:10
personalized help you need when you need it most.
00:11:13
Because even though we all deal with many of the same challenges, we don't always
00:11:17
experience those challenges the same way. So whether you're looking for
00:11:21
crisis support, downloadable resources, or an
00:11:24
extensive archive of mental health related articles and videos, we've got
00:11:28
you. From episodes of the Survivors podcast for suicide, loss
00:11:32
survivors, lived experience, blogs, to interactive
00:11:35
tools and professional connections, the Help Hub meets you where you
00:11:39
are and helps you move forward with strength and support.
00:11:43
Remember, you don't have to do this alone. Visit
00:11:46
thehelphub.co today.
00:11:52
Last week, when I hit that mental brick wall, you knew
00:11:56
I just had to take a pause. I had to take a pause, walk away,
00:12:00
do the things I needed to do for myself, listen to my own podcast.
00:12:03
Yeah, right, Physician. Heal myself. I need to heal
00:12:07
myself. But we can just talk. And we talk about
00:12:11
everything. Not just about suicide and mental health, but we talk about day to
00:12:15
day stuff too. And it's just that connection. It.
00:12:19
Trauma bonding is. It's a real thing. Is a real thing.
00:12:23
And until like you've gone through anything
00:12:26
that either of us have gone through, you don't really understand it.
00:12:30
But like people on the outside looking in can see that bond.
00:12:34
And I think it's just. Yeah, that's why it's phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah,
00:12:38
that's why so many people who made comments knowing
00:12:42
that you were coming this weekend to Boston
00:12:45
were like, we can't believe that you guys have never actually
00:12:49
met. Like, I'm touching her now for almost like this has only been the second
00:12:52
day. I'm like her little pet. You are pet. My little
00:12:56
garden. I'm as tall as one. So
00:13:01
just to kind of echo some of the things that we've been saying in terms
00:13:05
of especially vulnerability, because
00:13:08
obviously when you're bonding over trauma, and we're not necessarily
00:13:11
just excluding this, you know, to just
00:13:15
suicide, if we're talking about any. I mean, look, you've lost someone,
00:13:19
that's a trauma. You've had a breakup or you've lost a
00:13:22
house or lost your job. Yep. You know, lost
00:13:26
a best friend, lost an animal. Any type
00:13:30
of trauma in your life, if you can be vulnerable about it
00:13:34
and talk to somebody, it's absolutely freeing. Because
00:13:37
leaving that all bottled in is not good for you.
00:13:41
I can tell you firsthand it is not Good for you. And
00:13:45
this is not to say that, oh, talking about it with your best friend or
00:13:48
talking about it with your therapist, your partner, or whatever outlet
00:13:52
you have isn't beneficial. We're just saying
00:13:56
that in the context of whatever it is you're struggling with,
00:14:00
it's almost always, at least in our experience, it's almost always
00:14:04
more beneficial, a deeper understanding,
00:14:08
a stronger connection when that person you're talking to
00:14:12
or sharing with has gone through the thing. Yeah, there's,
00:14:15
that's just common sense. I mean that, that is why you and I
00:14:19
were saying I love you after our second phone call.
00:14:24
Never met anybody who matches my energy
00:14:27
level. Like, but like she's up here, like at the
00:14:31
88th level. We, we talk about things, all the
00:14:35
things. And there are certain things I'll share with Lisa that
00:14:38
I won't share with my therapist and there's certain things I share with my therapist
00:14:42
that I won't share with Lisa or I won't share with my wife. Like, those
00:14:45
are private things. And just being a good friend and listening,
00:14:49
that's everything. A lot of times we don't need you to say anything,
00:14:54
just listen to us. Yeah, right. And that's a good point because even
00:14:57
if you're talking like, let's talk in the context of suicide, which is what we're
00:15:01
obviously talking about here, even if you have someone in your
00:15:05
life who has gone through that, maybe they've lost someone,
00:15:10
it's not even about having that back and forth conversation
00:15:13
necessarily. It's about being able to share what's in your heart or
00:15:17
on your mind with a human being who understands what those
00:15:20
feelings feel like. It isn't even always about, like, what you're going to get back
00:15:24
in the conversation from that person. It's just, you know, that you're sharing it with
00:15:27
someone who understands what that kind of loss feels like. Or when you're talking
00:15:31
about survivor guilt, they know what that feels like or they know
00:15:35
what you know, it feels like to like, God, the things I should have, I
00:15:39
should, I should have asked or why did I miss that? Like, that person
00:15:43
knows that, doesn't need to say anything about it because they know it.
00:15:47
So this is all just a big 16 minute way
00:15:50
of saying that those conversations,
00:15:54
those friendships, those bonds are so unbelievably
00:15:58
valuable. So if you don't have them, if you haven't
00:16:01
accessed them, find them if you're struggling with something and yeah,
00:16:05
obviously do all the things that we always say, which is call 988the
00:16:09
Crisis Lifeline if you need to talk and need immediate support,
00:16:13
call a therapist. If you don't have one, find a therapist. Talk to friends,
00:16:17
family, coworkers, people you trust. But it's
00:16:20
also find the people. If you know there are people in your life who get
00:16:24
what you've gone through, find them. Find your
00:16:28
community. And if you don't want to do personal, go
00:16:31
out onto Instagram. There's a thousand posters out there that are
00:16:35
talking about mental health and have these cool little sayings. Yes,
00:16:39
I still. I still do that. Facebook groups.
00:16:43
Yeah. And there's so many free resources out there. So if you
00:16:46
are afraid that it's going to cost you money, there's a ton of free stuff
00:16:50
out there. Yeah, there's a ton of free stuff on there
00:16:54
all over the Internet. And there are also free
00:16:58
groups. I mean, I moderate through Samaritan south coast here in Boston. I moderate
00:17:01
a group every. Every other Monday and
00:17:05
Wednesday. It's a group for survivors of suicide,
00:17:09
loss. And it's. It's free and it's virtual. And you can be in Alaska
00:17:13
and join. So, like, you know how you have your sports communities
00:17:16
and you have your school communities, you can also
00:17:20
have your mental health community, because those mental health communities
00:17:24
will help you get from that next minute to that next
00:17:27
day. So I know we. We are doing this
00:17:31
completely impromptu. I was just like, hey, look, I set up a little mini studio,
00:17:35
and I have a chair for you. Come in here. We're recording an episode. So
00:17:38
the last. The last point that I. I personally think is
00:17:42
worth mentioning, you get to decide what your last point is, but is this
00:17:46
notion of shared pain, sparking purpose,
00:17:49
creating purpose. And look, this is not to say that every
00:17:53
person who has gone through adversity needs to write a book,
00:17:57
needs to start a podcast, needs to do some incredible, powerful
00:18:00
body of work. That is not what it's all about. People can
00:18:05
find their purpose in many different ways. But
00:18:09
this is to say, because obviously we're sitting here and we have done
00:18:12
that in a lot of different ways. I've written a book that's coming out. Gee's
00:18:16
written a book that's coming out. We're doing different things, but we're just
00:18:20
two examples of things that people can do. And it
00:18:23
proves the point that I want to make, which is that out of
00:18:26
unimaginable, traumatic loss,
00:18:30
it's possible to find meaning, it's possible to find
00:18:34
purpose, and it's possible to find people who
00:18:37
remind you that you're not
00:18:40
broken, that you're. You're Just healing and that you can
00:18:44
still find joy. Right? Right. Joy is
00:18:48
so important. Even on your worst days, you can
00:18:52
still find joy. And if you can connect with that one person
00:18:56
or those five people and just laugh, laughter
00:18:59
is truly the best medicine, is the best
00:19:03
icebreaker. And just kind of put yourself out there. I did.
00:19:06
I'm an extrovert, and I really put myself out
00:19:10
there. Yeah, you did. But I.
00:19:14
I'm happy that I did that because I have a new friend.
00:19:18
And you know what? We created this family. Yeah. And
00:19:22
we are not like every other podcast out there. Right. We're not
00:19:26
clinical, but so not clinical. It's all about friendship
00:19:30
and shared pain and our shared truths and trying
00:19:34
to help people so that they do not take their life by suicide
00:19:37
or that they know what it's. That we know
00:19:41
what it feels like, what they're going through, and they're not alone. You're
00:19:45
never alone, ever. And take a leap of faith. Take
00:19:49
a leap of faith. Like I. We completely took a leap. Yeah. We,
00:19:53
like, We. We just, like, dove head
00:19:56
first into the faith pool. Are we like Selma and Louise?
00:20:00
In a lot of ways, yeah. We had never, ever recorded together, except
00:20:04
for me being a guest on her podcast, which is a, you know, different dynamic,
00:20:08
two different hosts, all of that. It was easy for me to come on and
00:20:10
be a guest, but we didn't. We were talking about this last night. We didn't
00:20:13
have a cadence. We had never recorded. We didn't have an intro
00:20:16
planned or a style or anything. And we were just like, let's
00:20:20
go. Hit record. And here we. And we found our way, and we figured it
00:20:24
out, and we're still figuring it out, but it has really
00:20:27
enabled us to create something
00:20:31
special out of something that was horrible.
00:20:34
Horrible. Yeah. So it's a perfect blend
00:20:38
of joy and
00:20:42
sadness or pain, being able to coexist in
00:20:46
the same space. And that's life, friends. That is. That is life.
00:20:50
And we are just here to give one simple example
00:20:54
of, you know, what something like friendship and
00:20:58
community can do for you after trauma. Amen.
00:21:01
So what do I always say to you before we end every episode? That you
00:21:04
love me. I do. But now I get to say I love you. You get
00:21:08
to give up. Bye, friends. Thanks for
00:21:11
joining us on the Survivors. Remember, no matter how tough things feel,
00:21:15
you are enough. And the world needs you just the way you are. You're
00:21:19
not alone in this journey. There's a community here, and every step forward
00:21:22
counts. We're so grateful you took the time to listen. And we hope you'll
00:21:26
take one day at a time. Just know there's always more light ahead.
00:21:31
Thanks for being here, friends. Just remember, help is out there in
00:21:35
so many different places. So if you or someone you know is struggling,
00:21:38
please call 988 and a trained crisis counselor like me will be
00:21:42
there to help. You can also find an inclusive and comprehensive directory of
00:21:46
mental health resources, tools and
00:21:48
content@thehelphub.co. just remember that help
00:21:52
is always just a call or a click away. We'll catch you next week.
00:21:55
In the meantime, keep surviving.